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Friday, January 13, 2012

Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: AlpacaTalk on FaceBook

 

AlpacaTalk

Description

AlpacaTalk is a discussion group for alpaca breeders and alpaca enthusiasts. Please feel free to talk about anything regarding alpaca care, alpaca fiber, alpaca showing, alpaca organisations, and alpaca organisation POLITICS.



Heather

Heather Zeleny
White Lotus Alpacas
Oregon

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece






On Jan 13, 2012, at 2:07 PM, dragonflyalpacas@aol.com wrote:

 

I have to agree with Kirsty that we shouldn't assume what most people believe or feel on this or any other site.  I also agree that should slaughter be discussed, it is clearly stated in the subject line so the reader can make the choice. After all, this is AlpacaTalk, not SomeAlpacaTalk. There will always be subjects that will not interest people. Censoring open and honest discussions is not a good start. 

Roger Crout
Dragonfly Alpacas, LLC
Marydel, MD
Www.dragonflyalpacas.com
Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone

-----Original message-----
From: Heather Zeleny <alpacatalk@gmail.com>
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, Jan 13, 2012 21:52:20 GMT+00:00
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: AlpacaTalk on FaceBook

 

Don,

I think that most of us know that some people are slaughtering and eating alpaca. I also think that most of us, especially those on this group, are against it. I don't want to see advice on how to kill an alpaca, or where to take it to be slaughtered or cut and packed. If someone wants to do that, they're on their own, in my opinion. Chances are, they're probably hunters and already know where to go. I absolutely do not want AlpacaTalk to encourage or support slaughter of alpacas. The easiest way to prevent the so called "need" for slaughter is to breed carefully and responsibly. Same with cats and dogs. If people would not allow cats and dogs to breed freely, there would not be the problem with high euthanization rates in the US.

As far as what to do with an alpaca that has died but not going to necropsy, I think maybe some people would like some advice. And I feel that information should be freely shared.
Heather

Heather Zeleny
White Lotus Alpacas
Oregon

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece






On Jan 12, 2012, at 2:01 PM, <don@fleecefields.com> <don@fleecefields.com> wrote:

 

Barb Nelson Kifer: Thanks for adding me,Heather.. I have so much to learn and share... Just lets not discuss meat and/or composting paca bodies?

Heather Zeleny Absolutely, I do not want to entertain those in support of alpaca slaughter.

 

I don't know how to read the exchange above (copy/pasted from the facebook page) except to say some topics will be banned.  Will you assure us all that ALL topics related to alpaca ownership and the industry will be welcomed on the AlpacaTalk facebook page?

 

Don Stanwyck, Carnation, WA

 

From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Heather Zeleny
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 1:40 PM
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: AlpacaTalk on FaceBook

 

 

Where do you see that members will be kicked out for discussing any topic? 

 

 

Heather

 

Heather Zeleny

White Lotus Alpacas

Oregon

 

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece

 

 

 



 

On Jan 12, 2012, at 9:33 AM, <don@fleecefields.com> <don@fleecefields.com> wrote:



 

 

I went to the link but based on the first thing I saw there I'm concerned that the AlpacaTalk facebook group is going to kick out anyone who mentions alpaca slaughter.  This is a very important topic to our industry and not one that is going to go away.  While I'm not interested in dwelling on it I'd like to know up front whether people will be allowed to discuss it if the topic comes up on the facebook group.

 

Trading alpaca recipes might be a bit much for some people.

 

--don stanwyck, carnation, wa

 

From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lysa Grant
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 8:54 AM
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AlpacaTalk] Re: AlpacaTalk on FaceBook

 

 

Try this link instead

 

 

Lysa Grant

Pocopaca in The Poconos

         Jim Thorpe, PA

     








 

 

 






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posted by Chaddo at 2:36 PM 0 comments

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: AlpacaTalk on FaceBook

 

I have to agree with Kirsty that we shouldn't assume what most people believe or feel on this or any other site.  I also agree that should slaughter be discussed, it is clearly stated in the subject line so the reader can make the choice. After all, this is AlpacaTalk, not SomeAlpacaTalk. There will always be subjects that will not interest people. Censoring open and honest discussions is not a good start. 

Roger Crout
Dragonfly Alpacas, LLC
Marydel, MD
Www.dragonflyalpacas.com
Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone

-----Original message-----
From: Heather Zeleny <alpacatalk@gmail.com>
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, Jan 13, 2012 21:52:20 GMT+00:00
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: AlpacaTalk on FaceBook

 

Don,

I think that most of us know that some people are slaughtering and eating alpaca. I also think that most of us, especially those on this group, are against it. I don't want to see advice on how to kill an alpaca, or where to take it to be slaughtered or cut and packed. If someone wants to do that, they're on their own, in my opinion. Chances are, they're probably hunters and already know where to go. I absolutely do not want AlpacaTalk to encourage or support slaughter of alpacas. The easiest way to prevent the so called "need" for slaughter is to breed carefully and responsibly. Same with cats and dogs. If people would not allow cats and dogs to breed freely, there would not be the problem with high euthanization rates in the US.

As far as what to do with an alpaca that has died but not going to necropsy, I think maybe some people would like some advice. And I feel that information should be freely shared.
Heather

Heather Zeleny
White Lotus Alpacas
Oregon

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece






On Jan 12, 2012, at 2:01 PM, <don@fleecefields.com> <don@fleecefields.com> wrote:

 

Barb Nelson Kifer: Thanks for adding me,Heather.. I have so much to learn and share... Just lets not discuss meat and/or composting paca bodies?

Heather Zeleny Absolutely, I do not want to entertain those in support of alpaca slaughter.

 

I don't know how to read the exchange above (copy/pasted from the facebook page) except to say some topics will be banned.  Will you assure us all that ALL topics related to alpaca ownership and the industry will be welcomed on the AlpacaTalk facebook page?

 

Don Stanwyck, Carnation, WA

 

From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Heather Zeleny
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 1:40 PM
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: AlpacaTalk on FaceBook

 

 

Where do you see that members will be kicked out for discussing any topic? 

 

 

Heather

 

Heather Zeleny

White Lotus Alpacas

Oregon

 

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece

 

 

 



 

On Jan 12, 2012, at 9:33 AM, <don@fleecefields.com> <don@fleecefields.com> wrote:



 

 

I went to the link but based on the first thing I saw there I'm concerned that the AlpacaTalk facebook group is going to kick out anyone who mentions alpaca slaughter.  This is a very important topic to our industry and not one that is going to go away.  While I'm not interested in dwelling on it I'd like to know up front whether people will be allowed to discuss it if the topic comes up on the facebook group.

 

Trading alpaca recipes might be a bit much for some people.

 

--don stanwyck, carnation, wa

 

From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lysa Grant
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 8:54 AM
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AlpacaTalk] Re: AlpacaTalk on FaceBook

 

 

Try this link instead

 

 

Lysa Grant

Pocopaca in The Poconos

         Jim Thorpe, PA

     








 

 

 



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Message posts are the opinion of individuals posting and are not necessarily endorsed or approved by Yahoo! or the moderator of this group. The purpose of this discussion group is to ensure that all points of view can be aired. It is the responsibility of all individuals who post to treat others with respect and civility.
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posted by Chaddo at 2:07 PM 0 comments

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posted by Chaddo at 1:40 PM 0 comments

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[AlpacaTalk] GELDED GUARD LLAMA FOR SALE IN OHIO

 

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posted by Chaddo at 1:25 PM 0 comments

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] RE: Alpaca Talk on FaceBook

 

Hi all - just a few thoughts as a breeder in New Zealand, where there are certainly similar discussions occurring in the industry. This is certainly an emotive topic that tends to polarise owners / breeders, and I won't be expressing my opinion today, but would suggest that if there is strong feeling on the forum against any such discussions that either another forum is established where such discussions are accepted, or if posts are made the title is clear so those who choose not to open posts can do so.  Either way, establishing clear parameters about whether or how discussions occur to ensure the forum meets needs of members as much as practicable, is important. We all have different opinions, there are no rights and wrongs, and we all have different needs, ranging from the owner of two pets to large commercial operations, so also think it important that we don't assume what other's opinions are, or their needs on the forum, which are diverse. It did concern me however to hear comments like "most people on the forum are against alpaca slaughter" -  that's not accurate. 

It is an important and inevitable issue for the industry internationally - in NZ and Australia the meat industry is in it's infancy, but is occurring. Similarly, there has always been knowledge that breeders do cull for meat, but that it's not really discussed openly. It's an issue I'm comfortable with and interested in discussing, however understand it may be unpleasant for others which I respect, and that their longstanding perception of the forum as a place for safe topics, information and support may be eroded. 

How we manage this I'm not sure, but surely there'll be some options so we can retain the benefit of the forum for members. 

Regards, 
Kirsty Connell
Valenza Alpacas Ltd
Tauranga
New Zealand



From: "jelizabethfarms1@bellsouth.net" <jelizabethfarms1@bellsouth..net>
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 14 January 2012 6:18 AM
Subject: [AlpacaTalk] RE: Alpaca Talk on FaceBook

 
<<<Thank you Heather. You took
the words right out of my head
and said exactly what I was thinking.

Shirley Dillon

Alpacas of Gemini Farm
Basking Ridge, NJ 07920

www.alpacanation.
com/geminifarm. asp
908-647-2995
----- Original Message -----
From: Heather Zeleny
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: AlpacaTalk on FaceBook

Obviously. I think everyone knows this. And in light of the fact that there are indeed so many other discussion groups out there, I see no reason that there should not be one that supports "no-kill".

Heather>>>


Ditto.   If someone needs or wants to know how to cull their alpacas, there are plenty of other places to go.  I don't want to open my digest every day wondering if I am going to be slapped in the face with what may be a common practice but is not one I care to know about or think about.   Every animal that comes to live at my farm gets to stay until he/she dies, enjoying companionship and care every day, health care when needed, and then gets to be buried among his/her friends.  I realize that is not the case for everyone.   I also realize that sometimes hard decisions have to be made.   But for someone to enter the group asking for that discussion right off the bat I suspect it to become a common thread.  If so, I will stop coming here to visit with my other alpaca friends.   I would be unhappy to fear opening an AlpacaTalk digest out of concern there may be a grizzly heartbreaking discussion going on.    As I am on digest I don't get to pick and choose which posts I open.

My elderly matriarch  has given me many years of love, affectionate, and pure enjoyment.    She may be old, but I still love her.....regardless that her hair may be thinning......so is mine.   She often walks with a limp these days.   So do I many mornings.    Whether she can make me any money or not matters not one whit to me.  And trust me money is a huge issue for me these past few years....single unemployed mom homeschooling my kiddos.  

I for one refuse to participate in FaceBook for many reasons.    After so many years on this list, it is interesting that the subject of culling/slaughtering alpacas has just now arisen now that AlpacaTalk is on FB.   
I do hope FB won't supercede this wonderfully caring yahoo group.

Warmly,
Janice


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posted by Chaddo at 10:23 AM 0 comments

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[AlpacaTalk] RE: Alpaca Talk on FaceBook

 

<<<Thank you Heather. You took
the words right out of my head
and said exactly what I was thinking.

Shirley Dillon

Alpacas of Gemini Farm
Basking Ridge, NJ 07920

www.alpacanation.

com/geminifarm.asp
908-647-2995
----- Original Message -----
From: Heather Zeleny
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: AlpacaTalk on FaceBook

Obviously. I think everyone knows this. And in light of the fact that there are indeed so many other discussion groups out there, I see no reason that there should not be one that supports "no-kill".

Heather>>>


Ditto.   If someone needs or wants to know how to cull their alpacas, there are plenty of other places to go.  I don't want to open my digest every day wondering if I am going to be slapped in the face with what may be a common practice but is not one I care to know about or think about.   Every animal that comes to live at my farm gets to stay until he/she dies, enjoying companionship and care every day, health care when needed, and then gets to be buried among his/her friends.  I realize that is not the case for everyone.   I also realize that sometimes hard decisions have to be made.   But for someone to enter the group asking for that discussion right off the bat I suspect it to become a common thread.  If so, I will stop coming here to visit with my other alpaca friends.   I would be unhappy to fear opening an AlpacaTalk digest out of concern there may be a grizzly heartbreaking discussion going on.    As I am on digest I don't get to pick and choose which posts I open.

My elderly matriarch  has given me many years of love, affectionate, and pure enjoyment.    She may be old, but I still love her.....regardless that her hair may be thinning......so is mine.   She often walks with a limp these days.   So do I many mornings.    Whether she can make me any money or not matters not one whit to me.  And trust me money is a huge issue for me these past few years....single unemployed mom homeschooling my kiddos.  

I for one refuse to participate in FaceBook for many reasons.    After so many years on this list, it is interesting that the subject of culling/slaughtering alpacas has just now arisen now that AlpacaTalk is on FB.   
I do hope FB won't supercede this wonderfully caring yahoo group.

Warmly,
Janice

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posted by Chaddo at 9:18 AM 0 comments

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[AlpacaTalk] ...And they don't sell themselves, do they!

 

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Ellie Winslow, San Diego CA (zone 10)
Grower of--and writer about--superfruits and exotic tropical plants
Rural adventure:  http://beyondthesidewalk.com (Marketing Books & Workshops)
Wellness Adventure:  http://mindingthemiddleagedmiddle.com  (health and aging)
  

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posted by Chaddo at 6:56 AM 0 comments

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: AlpacaTalk on FaceBook

 

Thank you Heather.  You took
the words right out of my head
and said exactly what I was thinking.
 
Shirley Dillon
 
Alpacas of Gemini Farm
Basking Ridge, NJ  07920
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: AlpacaTalk on FaceBook

Obviously. I think everyone knows this. And in light of the fact that there are indeed so many other discussion groups out there, I see no reason that there should not be one that supports "no-kill". 


Heather

Heather Zeleny
White Lotus Alpacas
Oregon

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece





Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 15:24:12 -0800
Subject: RE: [AlpacaTalk] Re: AlpacaTalk on FaceBook

 

Heather:

While many of us are slow to address the need for a cull market, it is a real part of the alpaca industry now and a growing part going forward.  Many breeders and even pet owners are facing the challenge of what to do with their animals when they reach an age where the fiber they produce is coarse, short, and generally unmarketable.   Add to that, for those who are in the business instead of keeping alpacas as pets, the IRS requirement is that all farm operations are to exhibit a profit motive. It is difficult to explain to the auditor how keeping that 13-year old, 38 micron, 2-inch staple length gelded male is going to contribute to the farm's profit. 

The discussion of how to determine what animals need to be culled, how to cull, humane ways to deal with culls and the like are a very important part of talking about the livestock we raise.  For many, perhaps most of us, alpacas are not pets and we aren't a rescue; they are a business (but we do really enjoy and respect our alpacas).  If AlpacaTalk is just about raising pet alpacas, that's find.  Perhaps the name should be changed to AlpacaPets.  If it's for talking about the business of raising camelid livestock, then all pertinent topics should be equally welcome.

Alpacas are not now and never were a no-kill livestock.  There is no such thing as a no-kill livestock.  The horse industry tried that and all it did was move the slaughter to Mexico and resulted in thousands of animals getting freed on public lands.  I've been told they just reversed the no-kill rules for the US and horses will once again be able to be slaughtered here where they can be handled in a more humane manner. 

Don Stanwyck, Carnation, WA

Message posts are the opinion of individuals posting and are not necessarily endorsed or approved by Yahoo! or the moderator of this group. The purpose of this discussion group is to ensure that all points of view can be aired. It is the responsibility of all individuals who post to treat others with respect and civility.

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posted by Chaddo at 6:47 AM 0 comments