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Friday, June 26, 2009

Re: [AlpacaTalk] CA



Yes, here's another post of mine that people may be having trouble with. I'll bold the important words, other than that the text is the same as the original post on the group. 


As you may know, Yahoo does not allow editing of posts, either by the author, or by the moderators. The moderator can delete posts, and so can the author, but there is evidence as to that, by a gap in the sequence of posts. I have not deleted any posts at all on this group, except for spam that have slipped by. I also remove ads that are not posted on Fridays.

So here, is another post that may be confusing some members. As you can see, I am not the owner of any of those sires I spoke about. I have 3 boys, with 6 crias between them so far. No CA crias, or BEW, either.

Heather

On Jun 25, 2009, at 1:20 PM, Heather Zeleny wrote:




Laurel,
The last cria was born to this dam last year. I have no idea if she's been bred again. I've only met this person a couple of times and really only know this story because I was told by the sire owner. And apparently this breeder has had quite a bit of bad luck. He has some females with certain sires in their pedigrees twice, which he attributes to some of his bad luck. His dam with the 3 CA crias had different lines than his "linebred" females. By the way, I only know this much from searching ARI. 

The first case I spoke about, the sire in question has almost 50 registered offspring in 3 years of breeding and is owned by numerous partners. He is still being promoted and I'm sure breedings are being sold. I'm sure that number will increase by at least a dozen when the '09 crias are registered. Will all of those owners be told that the sire has thrown a CA cria? How many has he produced? I doubt that it will ever be disclosed.

I was told by another breeder that she had a sire, we'll call Joe, with a particular import sire in his background, and 2 breedings with 2 different dams were disastrous. I don't know the name of her sire, she didn't tell me. She did not specify what those disastrous results were, and honestly, I can't really say that the import sire should be held responsible. I don't even know that the import sire was Joe's sire, could have been grandsire or great grandsire. What about the other animals in Joe's lineage? Joe's dam might have had the bad genes, not the import sire. 

So you see, this is not so easy to tell people "Your really should cull any animal that has had a relative with CA." Who knows where it came from, in the lineage? 


Heather


On Jun 25, 2009, at 1:02 PM, Bluebird Hills Farm wrote:



Heather,
I find it hard to believe that the only defect Formula 409 would cause is choanal atresia. Are there other alpacas drinking out of the same bucket? Have they all had CA crias? I think what is seen here is a dam that throws CA and that in her case it is a dominant defect. There have been llamas that have done similarly. Terrible bad and sad luck for the owners.

The best that could be done with this situation is necropsies of the cria although it is probably too late. Blood samples of all sires and the dam sent to Andy Merriwether. 

Quick search  (very quick) did not show any birth defects secondary to Formula 409, but it was very quick.

Laurel


The Shouvlins 
Bluebird Hills Farm 
Springfield, Ohio 
937-206-3936 
www.bluebirdhills.com 
bluebirdhills@voyager.net



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posted by Chaddo at 9:17 PM 0 comments

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] BEW



Hey everyone. It seems there has been some confusion leading to some people accusing me of owning a sire that throws CA. This is not the case. The sire's farm is an acquaintance, and the dam owner is barely an acquaintance. I have no ownership in either animal.



Please read carefully before throwing blame around. It will save everyone a lot of embarrassment later on.


Best regards,
Heather


On Jun 25, 2009, at 5:07 AM, Bluebird Hills Farm wrote:



Heather, you wrote, "We later find out that 
"this is the 3rd CA cria from this dam. So now what?"

You were shocked Heather, I am sure you were TICKED OFF in a big way. I would be, in fact I would be strongly considering a threat of legal action so that these folks never would buy a breeding for that female again. Ultimately, I wouldn't sue or involve attorneys, but I sure would try to give them a reason not to breed her, again.

That is a very sad situation, for a sire's reputation is now terribly tarnished. If it were I, I think I would have a very tough time using him, for if somewhere down the line one of his direct progeny, or one of his descendants threw a CA cria, it would all come crashing down and I would be one of the "no good rotten farms" that perpetuated the problem.

This is an absolutely terrible situation. A horrible loss for that farm that owns the stud, but you can never go wrong taking the highest road possible.

As for the contract disclosures, you are absolutely right that congenital does not mean genetic, but at least the issue is on the table for discussion so that everyone makes an informed decision about the breeding to take place.

So sorry about that stud....a truly lousy situation.

Laurel

The Shouvlins 
Bluebird Hills Farm 
Springfield, Ohio 
937-206-3936 
www.bluebirdhills.com 
bluebirdhills@voyager.net






> I think that's an excellent idea. Laurel. That is a standard clause 
> in breeding contracts, the dam owner certifies that she has never 
> produced a cria with congenital defects, etc., etc. I agree, the sire 
> owner should certify the same for their sire. 
> 
> However, congenital doesn't mean genetic. 
> 
> But, I just remembered another breeder who had a paid breeding from 
> someone I know. They wrote to tell this person that the cria had 
> bilateral CA. Sire owner and I were shocked. We later find out that 
> this is the 3rd CA cria from this dam. So now what? 
> 
> Heather 
> 

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posted by Chaddo at 8:23 PM 0 comments

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] CA/BEW



Well, these things happen. I can look into more if you like. Anything to help.


Heather


On Jun 26, 2009, at 7:30 PM, cedargrovealpacas@comcast.net wrote:




Heather,

 

Wow, what a co-inkidink!! So how's that for hypothetical?!

 

Although we didn't ask you to research our lines, thanks for the info.....  The reason we didn't find her before, seems it's because her name was spelled wrong....

As of now, Visnu is no longer in our breedng program, and his daughter (and the babe on the way) is now non breeding stock......

 

We know that your sole intention of doing this is to see if we hold true to our word in  pulling the genetically faulted bloodlines...... it is done.

 
 

regards,

 

D

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posted by Chaddo at 7:37 PM 0 comments

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] CA/BEW



Heather,

 

Wow, what a co-inkidink!! So how's that for hypothetical?!

 

Although we didn't ask you to research our lines, thanks for the info.....  The reason we didn't find her before, seems it's because her name was spelled wrong....

As of now, Visnu is no longer in our breedng program, and his daughter (and the babe on the way) is now non breeding stock......

 

We know that your sole intention of doing this is to see if we hold true to our word in  pulling the genetically faulted bloodlines...... it is done.

 

 

regards,

 

D



----- Original Message -----
From: "Heather Zeleny" <alpacatalk@westwindalpacas.com>
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 6:49:05 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] CA/BEW



Now that you suggested that I investigate your herd, it appears that Lautaro has a BEW offspring, registered in 2003. And it looks as though  his son Vishnu was owned by Wombat Farms as late as June, 2006, only 3 years ago.



Heather

On Jun 26, 2009, at 6:11 PM, cedargrovealpacas@comcast.net wrote:




just to clear up this point so that Heather doesn't take this to the Nth..... (like what I say is going to matter, here anyway...)


 

"when we purchased these animals about 7 years ago on most, there were no BEW in the lines"


 

we bought most of our foundation herd 7 years ago,,,, and no BEW or CA were in the lines....


 

D

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posted by Chaddo at 7:30 PM 0 comments

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] CA/BEW



Now that you suggested that I investigate your herd, it appears that Lautaro has a BEW offspring, registered in 2003. And it looks as though  his son Vishnu was owned by Wombat Farms as late as June, 2006, only 3 years ago.



Heather

On Jun 26, 2009, at 6:11 PM, cedargrovealpacas@comcast.net wrote:




just to clear up this point so that Heather doesn't take this to the Nth..... (like what I say is going to matter, here anyway...)

 

"when we purchased these animals about 7 years ago on most, there were no BEW in the lines"

 

we bought most of our foundation herd 7 years ago,,,, and no BEW or CA were in the lines....

 

D

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posted by Chaddo at 6:49 PM 0 comments

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] CA/BEW



Hi Dawn/Meagan,

"We," meaning you, decided you weren't going to discuss anything further. You feel free to make accusation after accusation, and ask me for some sort of proof or confession??? As I reported, I have written to the sire owners of my boys, and forwarded your email with them, asking for information regarding any CA offspring. I am waiting for replies. I am terribly sorry if you feel this is some fort of omission on my part.

I was simply asking a hypothetical question, regarding a sibling of one of your hypothetical animals. Oh gosh. I meant to say "How would you feel", not "How do you feel." My deepest apologies. You would definitely cull that animal from your breeding program then, if a sib was a BEW?


Heather


On Jun 26, 2009, at 5:56 PM, cedargrovealpacas@comcast.net wrote:




well, well, Heather.... we SO let this go, but here you are again....for someone who was growing weary of the subject, you are sure putting a lot of effort into keeping this subject going..... so I'll tell you this... when we purchased these animals about 7 years ago on most, there were no BEW in the lines.... The lines were checked again just two weeks ago, and then still found nothing.  Now, what other people do during the almost decade of our owning the animals, we have no control over when the genetic is introduced into the line after the the spot in the pedigree where our animal is.....  Purchase decisions are made with current information at hand... 7 years ago.

 

Since we are not aware of this "half sibling' you mention, you are more than welcome to let us know which line so we can re-check this line and either validate or prove negative your allegation.  We have not had any blue eyes, or other problems in their offspring.....  If we do indeed verify the allegation to be valid, the line will be pulled from our breeding program.

 

it is really interesting that you will "invetigate" our lines, but won't fess up to yours....

 

Regards,

 

Dawn

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posted by Chaddo at 6:17 PM 0 comments

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] CA/BEW



just to clear up this point so that Heather doesn't take this to the Nth..... (like what I say is going to matter, here anyway...)

 

"when we purchased these animals about 7 years ago on most, there were no BEW in the lines"

 

we bought most of our foundation herd 7 years ago,,,, and no BEW or CA were in the lines....

 

D

 





----- Original Message -----
From: cedargrovealpacas@comcast.net
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 5:56:53 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] CA/BEW



well, well, Heather.... we SO let this go, but here you are again....for someone who was growing weary of the subject, you are sure putting a lot of effort into keeping this subject going..... so I'll tell you this... when we purchased these animals about 7 years ago on most, there were no BEW in the lines.... The lines were checked again just two weeks ago, and then still found nothing.  Now, what other people do during the almost decade of our owning the animals, we have no control over when the genetic is introduced into the line after the the spot in the pedigree where our animal is.....  Purchase decisions are made with current information at hand... 7 years ago.

 

Since we are not aware of this "half sibling' you mention, you are more than welcome to let us know which line so we can re-check this line and either validate or prove negative your allegation.  We have not had any blue eyes, or other problems in their offspring.....  If we do indeed verify the allegation to be valid, the line will be pulled from our breeding program.

 

it is really interesting that you will "invetigate" our lines, but won't fess up to yours....

 

Regards,

 

Dawn



----- Original Message -----
From: "Heather Zeleny" <alpacatalk@westwindalpacas.com>
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 1:48:30 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] CA/BEW



Oh dear, oh dear. Meagan, how do you feel about having offspring of an animal that has produced a BEW in your herd? Not the BEW in question, but say, a half sibling? 



Just curious.
Heather


On Jun 25, 2009, at 6:48 PM, cedargrovealpacas@comcast.net wrote:




There was clearly a link between them in the link I had sent out to the board. I never said they are the same, I said that they were linked due to, well, exactly what the article said.  AGAIN, you obviously are not reading what I SAID when I had written the initial post. Way to bat a thousand, Heather. Thumbs up!

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posted by Chaddo at 6:11 PM 0 comments

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] CA/BEW



well, well, Heather.... we SO let this go, but here you are again....for someone who was growing weary of the subject, you are sure putting a lot of effort into keeping this subject going..... so I'll tell you this... when we purchased these animals about 7 years ago on most, there were no BEW in the lines.... The lines were checked again just two weeks ago, and then still found nothing.  Now, what other people do during the almost decade of our owning the animals, we have no control over when the genetic is introduced into the line after the the spot in the pedigree where our animal is.....  Purchase decisions are made with current information at hand... 7 years ago.

 

Since we are not aware of this "half sibling' you mention, you are more than welcome to let us know which line so we can re-check this line and either validate or prove negative your allegation.  We have not had any blue eyes, or other problems in their offspring.....  If we do indeed verify the allegation to be valid, the line will be pulled from our breeding program.

 

it is really interesting that you will "invetigate" our lines, but won't fess up to yours....

 

Regards,

 

Dawn



----- Original Message -----
From: "Heather Zeleny" <alpacatalk@westwindalpacas.com>
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 1:48:30 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] CA/BEW



Oh dear, oh dear. Meagan, how do you feel about having offspring of an animal that has produced a BEW in your herd? Not the BEW in question, but say, a half sibling? 



Just curious.
Heather


On Jun 25, 2009, at 6:48 PM, cedargrovealpacas@comcast.net wrote:




There was clearly a link between them in the link I had sent out to the board. I never said they are the same, I said that they were linked due to, well, exactly what the article said.  AGAIN, you obviously are not reading what I SAID when I had written the initial post. Way to bat a thousand, Heather. Thumbs up!

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posted by Chaddo at 5:56 PM 0 comments