Heidi wrote:
>Attended a neonatal clinic. We were told that due to the altiplano's
>cold climate, a cria is born "dry" - basically shrink wrapped in a
>membrane so that it doesn't freeze to death before it could dry off.
>This is also the reason mom's don't lick the cria after birth.
>
>So - how can amniotic fliuid come in contact with the fiber
>to "stain" it?
Heidi,
I have birthed hundreds of crias. Every single one of them was born with
that epithelial membrane. As soon as the cria begins to roll around on the
ground (usually fairly soon in a healthy, vigorous cria) the membrane begins
to roll up and fall off. Every single cria I have ever seen born has been
wet underneath the epithelial membrane.
If it is cold or windy I dry them off with towels and/or a hairdryer. If it
is a nice sunny day I let the sun do the work. But always they are wet
under the membrane. If anyone else has had any other experience I would
like to hear of it.
Now the controversy swirls around what we call this moisture under the
epithelial membrane. Many contend that the epithelial membrane keeps the
amniotic fluid away from the fleece (Ken Madl's post is included below).
These folks do not directly address the fact that there is fluid both
outside AND WITHIN the epithelial membrane. All agree that the fluid
outside the epithelial membrane and within the amnion is amniotic fluid.
There is disagreement over whether the fluid within the epithelial membrane
is amniotic fluid or some other kind of fluid, but I have never known this
fluid to be identified by another name.
In the excellent book "Llama and Alpaca Neonatal Care" by Smith, Timms and
Long, Karen Timms, DVM, PhD a veterinary anatomist and probably the
county's leading camelid anatomist (maybe only?) discusses the developement
of the epithelial membrane within the pre-existing amnion. She does not
identify the fluid within the epithelial membrane by any particular name.
Whether that is an omission or whether she considers that fluid to be a
separate compartment of the amnion, I do not know and do not really care. I
have never measured the pH of this or any other fluid present at birth and I
do not plan to.
The important fact here and one that I hope we can all agree is that the
fluid does exist within the epithelial membrane and that it is WET.
We can argue til the cows come home (and those who love to argue will keep
at it long after the cows have come home, been milked and have gone to bed)
what to call or not call the fluid, whether it is acidic, alkaline or
neutral and whether any of those factors or even just the essential wetness
of it damages the exposed fleece tips. I have my own theories here, but I
will keep them to myself, because they are only theories, not facts, and it
doesn't really matter.
What does matter is one other fact that at least most of us can agree on:
The fleece that is already present at birth is different in many ways from
the fleece that grows in from the time of birth forward and most of the
differences are not things that we tend to regard as positve. At least in
huacayas, the "cria tips" as I will identify this pre-existing fleece tend
to be more prone to sunfading and other damage including "velcro factor" or
the tendency to hang on to every bit of hay, dirt, vegetation or other
debris that it has ever come in contact with and the crimp is often
different in this segment of the fleece (once again generally not in a
positive way).
We all have to deal with the fact that these differences exist, no matter
what you may or may not call what may or may not have caused it. It is.
Those of us who show will find our appraoch changing from year to year as
the Show Committee continues to hold to its' one guiding principle: Change
Every Rule Every Year!!!!
Just keep smiling and enjoy the ride! (and if your crias are born on a
cold, windy day "dry birth" or not, I'd dry 'em off)
Smiles,
Ruthanne
Ruthanne McCaslin, DVM
Promised Land Farm
11345 Thwing Rd.
Chardon, Ohio 44024
440-285-9255
Peruvian Perfection in Black and White - and other exciting colors!
>
>My response won't answer your question directly, but instead will
>deal with the premise.
>
>Being new, someone has given you wrong information about the tips on
>alpaca fleece. It has nothing to do with amniotic fluid! We have
>discussed this several times in the past, but the myth persists.
>Not only does it *NOT* bleach the fiber, but the fluid is acidic.
>
>Below are some previous messages.
>
>Ken Madl
>Aviana Farms
>
>------------------------
>
>Subject: Amniotic fluid bleaches fiber?
> Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004
> From: <GenesisAlpacas@a...>
> To: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
>
>Hi folks,
>
>I can't tell you how many times over the past five years I've heard
>folks say that amniotic fluid bleaches fiber, and that this is why
>the cria tips are lighter than what grows next. Where did this
>notion come from?
>
>I know I'm really sticking my neck out here, but is there really any
>science or truth behind this? What substance exactly, in the fluid,
>would you suppose is responsible for bleaching fiber, and why would
>this fluid not hurt the fetus as he drinks it and opens his eyes in
>it? (Ian, you made my point so much more eloquently). Amniotic
>fluid has got to be one of the most neutral environments possible.
>
>Could it possibly be that the cria tips are light colored and
>"velcro-like" because of the stage of maturation those folllicles
>are in? A follicle can change the type and color of fiber it
>produces based on the age of the mammal. Look at how your newborn's
>down becomes your 14 year old son's peach fuzz "mustache" becomes
>his stiff beard 10 years later, and how the color changes!
>
>Okay, I'm challenging someone to prove to me that amniotic fluid
>bleaches alpaca fiber. Sounds like a good science fair experiment,
>except I don't know how you keep a bath of amniotic fluid from
>spoiling long enough to "bleach" the fiber (a month or two??)
>
>Good naturedly stirring the pot,
>
>Alise
>Alise & John Schmitt
>Genesis Alpacas
>
>=======================================
>
>Subject: RE: Amniotic fluid bleaches fiber?
> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004
> From: Elizabeth Paul <erehwonalpacas@hotmail.com>
> To: kenneth.madl@prodigy.net
>
>Ken yes, well said Alise, I have been wondering when someone would
>refute this idea that the amniotic fluid, as a protective bath in
>which the baby grows and develops, and does indeed swallow in the
>last stages of pregnancy, is acid/burns/bleaches/destroys fibre and
>so on. If amniotic fluid was destructive enough to be able to damage
>hair fibre (which is remarkably tough stuff) what then would it have
>already done to the soft tissues of the baby????
>
>Regards ElizP
>
>=======================================
>
>Subject: Re: [Alpacasite] Amniotic fluid bleaches fiber?
> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004
> From: Kenneth E. Madl <kenneth.madl@prodigy.net>
> To: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
>
>On Tue Feb 17, 2004, Alise Schmitt <GenesisAlpacas@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > I can't tell you how many times over the past five years I've
> > heard folks say that amniotic fluid bleaches fiber, and that
> > this is why the cria tips are lighter than what grows next.
> > Where did this notion come from?
>
>
>In 1998, someone dreamed this up as a way of explaining why their
>black alpacas weren't solid black, and it caught on. There has been
>absolutely *NO* scientific evidence to indicate this takes place.
>(This replaced a previous theory which I commented on back then:
>"Usually, these tips are referred to by some people as "sun
>bleached", even when the animals are born in the Pacific Northwest
>during the Winter and never see the sun.")
>
>If amniotic fluid bleaching was actually happening, why don't *ALL*
>black alpacas have brown tips when they are born?
>
>Ken Madl
>Aviana Farms
>
>=======================================
>
>Subject: Amniotic Fluid vs.Fiber
> Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004
> From: Shouvlins <bluebirdhills@v...>
> To: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
>
>Hello Again,
>
>Hate to say it folks, but we are all forgetting one very obvious
>reason why amniotic fluid is not a factor in bleaching fiber in
>utero. Remember the epidermal membrane, that extra covering we
>sometimes have to strip off the cria? It completely encloses the
>outer surface of the cria for the last months of gestation, before
>and after the fetus develops hair. It keeps the amniotic fluid from
>coming into contact with the cria's skin and only allows it to
>contact the mucus membranes of the nose and mouth, the toe coronets
>and footpad, the vulva or prepuce, ears, eyelids, and anus.
>
>Laurel
>
>Tim & Laurel Shouvlin
>Bluebird Hills Farm
>Springfield, Ohio 45503
>
>
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