Hi Judith,
Yes, we want to "distil" those qualities we want in our herds---a particular look or color, or quality of fiber, or ability to hold fineness---and that means we want to "line breed"---which ONLY in alpacas----has a bad name. Every other type of live or pet stock is trying to "responsibly" line breed to better fix in those traits we wish to display in our herds, but avoid those we do not want to perpetuate.
The problem is that all those traits were never sorted by COE…any COE…despite Mike Safley's (and other's) push for the "pure Peruvian" as a brand of sorts.
Now there are some very nice animals which hale from Peru…and some equally nice hale from Chile and Bolivia. It is just that the country of importation has absolutely no relation to that quality or lack thereof. I know that that is not the reputation in the industry---but it is nonetheless a truth.
In point of fact, the only differences I have been able to really see---is that the first importations were not as carefully screened as later importations---so the first importations---mostly from Chile---were not of the same quality as some of the later importations. So countries from which we made the first importations were blamed for our lack of expertise in choosing those first imports. It does not follow from that history that Chilean animals are in fact lesser than Peruvian or Bolivian ones.
There are spectacular quality Chilean animals---and Bolivian ones---and some real dud Peruvian ones as well as some wonderful ones. It is just that those were not necessarily the ones which were imported, especially at first. Over time the industry learned how to better screen the animals which came in from all points of SA, so later importations---many from Peru or Bolivia, were of better overall quality.
In the end, it is the quality of the animal in front of you rather than where it came from which is of importance to the herd you are building. I suppose it is easier to tie that quality or look to a country of importation---but it is not necessarily what is responsible for that quality. Our industry is just beginning to really grasp that point.
Even more worth reflection is the challenge---that some of the most important qualities of these animals for our industry are not going to be easily demonstrated in the show ring, or even by looking at COE's of ancestors in a pedigree. Qualities like the ability to hold a good bite into the second decade, to hold fiber qualities into that second decade, to have ruddy good health and be thrifty, to maintain sound conformation, to not be susceptible to various cancers, to be reproductively sound without dystocia or lack of milk, the ability to maintain condition through repeated pregnancies, just to name a few, are not seen by the ribbons from the shows.
Over time I would dearly love to see the industry move to better evaluation resources than COE or show ribbons or whatever---move to EPDs and carefully maintained herd records---and a variety of other more important indices of quality. What those should be is not yet totally clear---but I hope it becomes more clear in the near future. I can name some things that do not work---but I do not have a list of all the things which might be better. I guess the most critical thing is time---time and patience while our industry fledges.
In any case, you and Heather do have some lovely animals---but I think you give credit to the wrong source—it is more likely your skill as breeders finding and breeding good examples of the qualities you want in your herds---even if limiting yourselves to a specific COE. Were you to choose by those skills alone, excluding COE---I think your herds would still be just as fine as they are now.
It is within you---in knowing a good animal when you find one---and in knowing how to impart those qualities to your herd as a whole which make you skilled breeders, rather than just having selected from a specific COE.
Allison
Allison E. Moss-Fritch
New Moon Alpacas
350 Cloquallum Rd.
Elma, WA 98541
aemoss17@comcast.net
360 861-8584
From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Judith Korff/Ladysong Farm
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 10:08 AM
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Is it so hard to get the heritage of your alpacas correct?
While I agree with you on the one hand, Allison, I have to point out that in order to ensure the availability of a wide variety of genetic options, it's important that some breeders focus on the genetics of one COE or another (e.g., ultimately it doesn't matter whether the animal originated in Peru and was exported from Bolivia, or originated in Bolivia and was exported from Peru; they are merely referred to by the Country of Export as though originating in that country). Otherwise, everybody has a Kaleidoscope with lots of pretty pieces of glass, but if I wanted to extract one special color from your Kaleidoscope, I couldn't do it without going back to the original glassmaker. Once those genetics have been blended fully, they can't then be extracted from the blend to be used in another blend (of course, you could blend your whole Kaleidoscope with my whole Kaleidoscope and hope that the right bit of glass gets passed along, but that's very inefficient and chancy). Both Heather and I focus on Bolivian genetics (she with huacayas and I with suris) because we have found it very difficult to obtain the special pieces of glass we want because the intense pressure to breed everything to something Peruvian has resulted in the dispersal and diminishment of those pieces. This way, we may not have all the colors in your Kaleidoscope, but we have "colors" (or qualities) to offer that others may want without having to try to sift them out of yours. Otherwise, I agree that alpacas should be judged on their own merits, and all breedings should be done with a goal in mind.
LadySong Farm Bolivian Suri Alpacas
Suri: Silk Without the Worm
Randolph, New York 14772
From: Allison Moss-Fritch <aemoss17@comcast.net>
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, November 21, 2010 11:02:32 AM
Subject: RE: [AlpacaTalk] Is it so hard to get the heritage of your alpacas correct?
Hi Heather,
I guess I am not so worried about where the animal was imported from. Many animals walked the length of Chile to get to Peru or walked all of Peru but were imported from Bolivia---so the country of origin tells you nothing of either the quality or heritage of the animals you are buying; it is a mere marketing ploy started many years ago by a small group of American breeders who were importing animals at the time.
What is critically important is the genetic background of the animal in front of you---the one you are considering adding into the gene pool of your farm.
Those individual animals which have only been identified as far back as importation---their genetic makeup---what qualities and faults they are carrying in their gene pool; that is what is important.
Those genes when added to your farm become a kaleidoscope of genes from which each offspring animal becomes but one more twist of that kaleidoscope---the genes in the scope do not change, but the arrangement of them, the expression of them in the cria you just bred---that is what you get---and the little pieces of glass in the scope are all you have to work with. That is your genetic world. If it is not in your scope, good or bad, you don't have it.
With the glass in your scope---you can make an infinite number of varying patterns which express a picture of genetic material---those are your crias. Every time you add new genes to your scope----new bits of glass---the pictures in the scope are once again varied in new ways.
If you line breed, the chances of making several similar pictures is raised---you will be using fewer glass pieces, so your pictures will become more similar to one another. That will give you more homogeneity---but it raises both the chance of better qualities you seek, and genetic faults which you do not.
So, it then becomes important which pieces of glass are in your scope---which genes are on your farm. When you add an animal, you are trying to pick up genetic "glass" bits that you need and yet not add in some pebble or debris that you do not want---a genetic fault of some sort. What country the glass came from---irrelevant, really.
My foundation animals are like the mirror inside my scope---they show the genetic material that is in the scope to me---provided it is uncovered in my scope. If I shake the scope, that rearranges those bits by covering different pieces than before and also by uncovering new pieces. All the pieces are still there, but each picture will be different depending on which pieces show.
Allison
Allison E. Moss-Fritch
New Moon Alpacas
350 Cloquallum Rd.
Elma, WA 98541
aemoss17@comcast.net
360 861-8584
From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Heather Zeleny
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:05 PM
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AlpacaTalk] Is it so hard to get the heritage of your alpacas correct?
Is it just me (and a few other people with whom I've had this conversation), but does anyone else balk at the sloppy designation of alpacas for sale on the various sites? Side note, why can't those heritage selectors be set up to only accept a total of 100% anything, even a combination? I learned how to do that in lower lower division programming classes. Come on guys.
But really, I am so sick of seeing animals that come up on my search for full Bolivian, only to find ones who claim full Bolivian AND full Peruvian heritage, or whatever. I won't do business with a farm that is either that sloppy or intends to mislead customers, so they don't even refer to the registration certificate.
I have been approached by many farms offering their full Bolivian dams to me, but after look them up on ARI, I find they are not even close to full Bolivian. And these are even some large-ish farms, run by AOBA certified judges! Whaaaaaa???? Come on people.
So, when shopping for alpacas, please do your ARI searches to verify sellers' statements, at the very minimum.
Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece
