Allison has a great point. Choose your dog based on what they are bred to do. Herding dogs can make alpacas nervous because they remind them of predators - think about the way they work a herd, circling and crouching down....
Some of the folks on the LGD lists have dogs who are not working and have strong opinions about farm life - make sure that advice you are taking comes from someone who has dogs living and working livestock.
Large breeds do take a while to mature but can be helpful at a young age. We have had 9 month olds running fence lines and alerting us to things out of the ordinary. One of the dogs we currently have has been "on the job" with her mother since she was 6 months old and is one of our best. What you will find is that they are nearly full grown around 9 months and are very attentive but will still do puppy stuff - my husband learned put his tools up and keep plastic items out of reach the hard way.
Buy your LGD from someone who has working dogs and keeps the pup until they are at least 10 -12 weeks old.This extended time allows the pup to get his/her canine social skills and spends some time guarding with Mom and /or Dad. We have coached more people though difficult puppyhoods because the breeder sent to pup to it's new home too soon.
LGD breeds have different temperaments so I'd research which breed best suits your needs. We like the pyr because they are social as well as efficient guardians. We work with 4H kids and have grandchildren so it was essential to us to have a dog that would be open to having children in with the alpacas. We have never lost an animal to a predator in the 8 years we have had the pyrs. They are amazing dogs - very bright...
We have heard many stories from the people we have sold dogs to over the years attesting to their skill and bravery. I love to watch them work, taking turns walking the fence and communicating danger to each other. They are definitely work their price and training as the biggest threat to your herd is roaming neighborhood dogs. We had a stray running around the farm last summer. Our dogs took turns running the dog up and down the fenceline. After a while it was exhausted and went on down the road. When I asked John about it he said that they didn't want that dog near their animals and one tactic they use is exhaustion. They knew that if they tired him out he would be less and less of a threat.
Lucinda
JOHN and LUCINDA LEUGERS
WINDY MEADOW FARM
Suri Alpacas and Great Pyrenees
New Bremen, Ohio 45869
419-394-3880
www.windymeadow.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Allison Moss-Fritch
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 2:06 PM
Subject: RE: [AlpacaTalk] RE: LGD lists
Heather.
A farm collie is a herding dog rather than a guarding dog. We don't herd
alpacas .they don't take to it. Get the farm collie to be a companion,
guard of the farm, a helpmate, and a wonderful watcher of poultry if
properly taught. They can and will happily bring in your milk cow, watch
your chickens from the local hawk, and generally keep coyotes and other
animals away from the farm yard. They stop the possum from taking the hens,
that sort of thing. BUT ..
THEY ARE NOT A LGD THEY are NOT bred or trained or instinctively suited to
do that work. ONLY a LGD is suited for that work of being a member of the
herd and working as a member of the herd to protect the other members of the
herd. It is totally different duty.
Please use and own a farm collie.they are wonderful. But also own a pair of
LGD that live in with your alpacas as a part of the herd. That is a
different task and they are well suited to it. The farm collie is NOT! I
grew up with farm collies.they are wonderful. But we had a sheep ranch and
they could herd sheep all day for us. And they did bring in our cows every
evening.and one slept near the poultry house.so no skunks, possums or
raccoons ever ate our eggs!
Allison Moss-Fritch
New Moon Alpacas
Santa Clara, CA
http://www.newmoonalpacas.com
From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of houckj@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 8:26 AM
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AlpacaTalk] RE: LGD lists
<<<<There is sooooo much more info, I do hope you join one of those LGD
lists.
Best of luck!
Heather>>>>
I too am contemplating getting a LGD, but have for the most part been
scared away from them. Currently I am leaning towards a collie. The
little bit of info I have been able to glean has me confused as to
exactly what dog is being suggested - I have seen rough coat, farm
collie, english shepard all used interchaneably best I can figure.
Do you have a lgd list you particularly like or can recommend for newbies?
Also, Chrystella, you have gotten some good advice from those who know
much more than I. But I would like to add that tho I know nothing about
LGD, I have spent many years of my life training personal protection
dogs, which are also working dogs (mine have always been imported german
shepards - fabulous dogs!!! (and nothing like the so called german
shepards bred in this country for show and confirmation with a squirrly
temperment). Anyway, a couple of things.....
Large dogs take a minimum of 2 yrs to mature....they are big babies for
a very long time. I got a GS puppy when my first dd was 2yo - huge
mistake! My rule now? Never ever have a new puppy and a baby potty
training at the same time!! But seriously, they do take a long time to
mature. And if you are not able to provide them fairly constant
companionship they *will* do much better with a companion. dogs are
social animals, they do not do well alone at all.
Working dogs are highly intelligent (at least most of them!). When I
got started working with personal protection dogs I was taught to never
ever second guess them. Yes you train them, but then you trust them to
know their job. In this example you would never ever correct a dog for
barking aggressively towards a person *you* thought was ok. But the
well trained dog would stay by your side and never be physically
aggressive without your command or ok. Trust me, a working protection
dog sitting by your side and snarling is a great deterrent LOL! The
level of training needed is precise and specific and necessary. When I
started looking into LGD the thing that has caused me to back off that,
even tho I had 2 bobcat attacks last summer and was very worried and
remain so, is the level of committment to "training", really teaching,
required. I knew that I did not have the time to devote to that right
now.
A dog wants to please by its very nature. If a dog is not doing what
you are asking then you are asking it to do something it does not
understand. It is *our* job to understand them and teach them to
understand us.....all they want to do is please.
A large puppy can be incredibly frustrating. I spent the first year
with the particular dog I am referring to in tears and thought every day
I would send him back. I too was at my wit's end. But today he is 9yo
old and my family totally depends on him. If I can find one that will
do as well for my animals as this boy does with myself and my children I
will be very very happy. But it took about 2 yrs before I wasn't
thinking of sending him back! Also I have had the experience of getting
one of these dogs when I did not have time to train. German shepards
are incredibly intelligent dogs and by nature will protect their
property and their people, however, without a base knowledge of
obedience language they are a pain in the ass! This is why I am not
jumping into a LGD even tho I know I desperately need one (that, and
money, or lack thereof, as well).
All that said, however, it is totally possible to get rooked into
purchasing a dog that is not suitable. What these breeders are telling
you sounds a bit suspicious to me. What they are telling you seems
contrary to what the folks here are telling you and what I know about
training a different sort of working dog. It doesn't mean the dog is
necessarily the wrong one but perhaps their advice is not good.
Coming on command in incredibly important. You teach it at a very very
young age by calling their name and running away from them. This
excites their chasing/playing instinct and they will naturally run after
you. If you call their name and chase them you are teaching them to run
from you - they think it is a game - AND to run when hearing their name
called. Never ever call their name and discipline them. Sets up bad
association. If you must correct/discipline you must go get them. All
they ever ever get is praise and reward (as puppies) when they come to
you. If they are already running/coming in your direction start calling
their name. Every time they do something like sit down, utter the word
sit. Every time they lay down utter the word down. This is how you
begin to teach them language. That is the best way to start them out so
they understand why you are requesting. That may all that is required
of some dogs, some may be more hardheaded and will need more firm and
directed methods.
Use common sense and kindness and compassion. They are babies and don't
understand our language. Your guy is lonely out in the pasture by
himself; he's been separated from his parents, his "group" and all he
knows :-(.
Warmly, Janice
Thanks! Janice
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Message posts are the opinion of individuals posting and are not necessarily endorsed or approved by Yahoo! or the moderator of this group. The purpose of this discussion group is to ensure that all points of view can be aired. It is the responsbilty of all individuals who post to treat others with respect and civility.
