alpacas: 01/12/09

Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: silver spot vs white spot / New Gray Database Website

hi Susan - i really enjoyed looking through your 'gray alpacas' website - it's very informative and of course the pictures of the gray alpacas are gorgeous - thanks very much for sharing this info - i look forward to participating.
Wendy
DreamWeaver Alpacas
BC
----- Original Message -----
From: Susan Mikulecky
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 7:31 AM
Subject: [AlpacaTalk] Re: silver spot vs white spot / New Gray Database Website

After months of hard work and lots of excitement, we are happy to
announce the launching of a new site for breeders interested in gray
alpacas. http://www.grayalpacacentral.com Participation is free.

What Are Gray Alpacas?

This website is devoted to providing an answer.
The centerpiece of GrayAlpacaCentral is its unique pictorial database.
In this database you will see pictures of every alpaca entered, as
well as pictures of that alpaca's family tree. With this tool breeders
can follow the get and produce of any entered alpaca, and their sire,
dam, and siblings as well. There is no cost to register and use this
database.

Our forum will allow lively discussion on any "gray" topic. These
discussions can easily reference the pictorial database to minimize
confusion. Position and research papers on gray color genetics are
also available to enlighten and discuss.

We hope you will have a few minutes to visit the site, and we are very
interested in your feedback and ways we can make improvements.

Thank you!

Kind regards,

Scott & Susan Mikulecky
Alpaca Annuals
Colorado Springs, CO

Nancy Lake
Alpine Alpacas
Hagerstown, MD

Neil and Jo Padget
A Paca Fun Farm
Dickerson, MD

JC Williamson & Nancy Barkoviak
BlueGenes Alpaca Ranch
Gaithersburg, MD

Jeff and Beth Hull
Cherry Run Farm Alpacas
Mercersburg, PA

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RE: [AlpacaTalk] Re: everything! :)

Your question about repeated twinning is one that just came up yesterday at
the UCDavis Camelid Symposium. The good vets there say that twinning does
not often happen with live twins resulting and that it is not more likely to
happen in alpacas to a mom that has had them before.only time will tell!

Allison Moss-Fritch

From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of AmyJoLabbe@aol.com
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 4:17 AM
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: everything! :)

Heather.

I am not sure about alpacas, but in horses and people, a female prone to
twins will more often than not have twins again. So you may have one of
those
girls that is very prone to twining.

I would not think you would want to raise twins. Money/profit aside, it is
very hard on the mother and many, if not most, times one baby is
compromised.
Especially with animals that are not meant by nature to carry twins.

When our horse ultrasounds with twins, we abort one twin and hope the other
survives. This is easily done and causes little if no discomfort to the
mare.
There are few mares that can carry two babies to term, and then a percentage

of those that dont produce enough milk, or make enough milk but it tears
down
their weight so terribly. And in all the sets of twins we have seen born -
we have only seen one set that grew up to full potential. The majority had a

baby die, had a baby that was stunted and grew to pony size or never had the

qualities that the other baby had.

So my thought would be, if you had your female be able to carry to term, I
would be conserned on what it might do to her physically and if she could
produce enough milk for them both. Could she keep her weight up. And if the
two
where actually born alive, would they both be strong enough to survive, have

good fiber and would they both grow to full size or would you end up with
stunted dwarf like alpacas?

These are just questions to think about. Its all a numbers game. I am sure I

saw something about a pretty fine set of twins born to an alpaca - but that
doesn't mean that will be the norm considering this is a species that
normally delivers single births, maybe for a reason.

Amy

**************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making
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RE: [AlpacaTalk] RE: halter training

Hi Lysa,

Yes, it is possible to interbreed llamas and alpacas...frowned upon but has
happened, both intentionally and unintentionally over the years. Usually a
male alpaca put to a female llama results in a "huarizo" animal. If it is a
female alpaca and a male llama, I was told that it is called a "misti".
There was no such thing as a suri llama until one of the original alpaca
breeders bred his magnificent stud, El Magnifico, to a bunch of llamas to
create suri llamas...so we know they can interbreed and that the offspring
are fertile.

Allison Moss-Fritch
New Moon Alpacas
Santa Clara, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Lysa Grant
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 5:15 PM
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] RE: halter training

Thanks for the info, I think I need new halters.
I just got back from PA Farm Show and I noticed the halters where
quite a bit different than
the ones I have.
I also thought that the alpacas were a bit smaller than my boys.
I am wondering if it is possible to breed alpacas and llamas? While
the ears on mine are alpaca sized and
they are definitely not as big as llamas, they are certainly larger
than most of the alpacas I saw at
farm show.

Sounds like you are doing great with Merry! Keep it up!

L
On Jan 11, 2009, at 9:59 AM, houckj@aol.com wrote:

> <<<<Hmmm. That is a nice story. Thanks for sharing.
> I have been able to get the halters on, but trying to lead them turns
> out to be dangerous with
> the kicking and rearing up!>>>>
>
> Lysa, I can't imagine trying to hand feed 2 males at the same time;
> that
> must be quite a feat :-). Sounds like you are doing great with these
> boys! Maybe you could take turns hand feeding one while the other eats
> and then reverse at the next feeding.....keeping them together, but
> one
> eating on his own?
> I am no expert, but will offer you the only tip I have that was
> given to
> me.......hold that lead rope right up under the chin so you have a
> firm
> grasp. That way you are controlling the head no matter what the legs
> are trying to do! And can prevent the rearing up by putting some
> downward pressure on the chin/head.
> I was told this by a llama breeder watching me trying to lead my first
> alpaca as she was weaving and bouncing and kicking up a fuss! The
> woman
> grabbed the lead rope right up under the chin and had nearly instant
> control. I was impressed and have done it that way ever
> since.....until
> they can walk nicely that is; and even still in stressful or
> potentially
> frightening situations. It seems to give them a sense of security or
> at
> least that someone is in control.
>
> Warmly, Janice
> PS Merry weighed 21# yesterday! a 1# gain in 2 days - I skipped a day,
> and she is getting so darn hard to carry I am going to start with the
> halter for a few minutes today and work with that for several days and
> try to lead her next time. I think I can safely start weighing her
> only
> 2x wk now. She is getting too doggone big and strong to carry and
> those
> legs, oh my those legs - so long and so strong. She has kicked over
> everything in my office trying to get in to the scales!
>
>

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] RE: halter training

Thanks for the info, I think I need new halters.
I just got back from PA Farm Show and I noticed the halters where
quite a bit different than
the ones I have.
I also thought that the alpacas were a bit smaller than my boys.
I am wondering if it is possible to breed alpacas and llamas? While
the ears on mine are alpaca sized and
they are definitely not as big as llamas, they are certainly larger
than most of the alpacas I saw at
farm show.

Sounds like you are doing great with Merry! Keep it up!

L
On Jan 11, 2009, at 9:59 AM, houckj@aol.com wrote:

> <<<<Hmmm. That is a nice story. Thanks for sharing.
> I have been able to get the halters on, but trying to lead them turns
> out to be dangerous with
> the kicking and rearing up!>>>>
>
> Lysa, I can't imagine trying to hand feed 2 males at the same time;
> that
> must be quite a feat :-). Sounds like you are doing great with these
> boys! Maybe you could take turns hand feeding one while the other eats
> and then reverse at the next feeding.....keeping them together, but
> one
> eating on his own?
> I am no expert, but will offer you the only tip I have that was
> given to
> me.......hold that lead rope right up under the chin so you have a
> firm
> grasp. That way you are controlling the head no matter what the legs
> are trying to do! And can prevent the rearing up by putting some
> downward pressure on the chin/head.
> I was told this by a llama breeder watching me trying to lead my first
> alpaca as she was weaving and bouncing and kicking up a fuss! The
> woman
> grabbed the lead rope right up under the chin and had nearly instant
> control. I was impressed and have done it that way ever
> since.....until
> they can walk nicely that is; and even still in stressful or
> potentially
> frightening situations. It seems to give them a sense of security or
> at
> least that someone is in control.
>
> Warmly, Janice
> PS Merry weighed 21# yesterday! a 1# gain in 2 days - I skipped a day,
> and she is getting so darn hard to carry I am going to start with the
> halter for a few minutes today and work with that for several days and
> try to lead her next time. I think I can safely start weighing her
> only
> 2x wk now. She is getting too doggone big and strong to carry and
> those
> legs, oh my those legs - so long and so strong. She has kicked over
> everything in my office trying to get in to the scales!
>
>

------------------------------------

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Twins

Hmmmmm Heather, Interesting question, I hadn't really thought about that, but given that it's been documented that alpacas have aborted a fetus w/ placenta and then delivered a viable cria even months later it wouldn't be hard for me to see how they could absorb/abort a really early fetus and continue with a "normal" pregnancy.

So, maybe she always "rolls doubles" but nature has taken care of it.

I'm interested to hear what others think.

Kathy & Earl Klay
Jefferson Laurel Farm
8181 Havens Road
Blacklick, Ohio 43004
(614) 855-9194

--- On Mon, 1/12/09, Heather Zeleny <alpacatalk@westwindalpacas.com> wrote:

From: Heather Zeleny <alpacatalk@westwindalpacas.com>
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Twins
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 12, 2009, 1:20 PM

Oh, by the way, the dam is perfectly fine. She wasn't bothered a bit
by her pregnancies slipping. I think this early, they aren't
concerned. Late term miscarriages, however, and full term
stillbirths, they do know and grieve the crias. We've had more of
those than we wish...

My only annoyance is loss of production time, and that's less
important to me than Natalia's health, and she appears to be strong
and absolutely fine.

On Jan 12, 2009, at 10:11 AM, Heather Zeleny wrote:

> Ok, thanks everyone for your input on the twins question. Next
> question is, does anyone have any insight as to why she's suddenly
> implanting both embryos after only having singles previously? And,
> what to do about it?
>
> Heather

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RE: [AlpacaTalk] Re: everything! :)

I didn't realize the survival rate was so rare. The first farm I visited was here in Bucks County Pa. and there were a set of twins that were recently born there. They did well and I saw them listed for sale the next year so I guess they did well. Flossie
Flossie and Joe Carmichael GentleGrangeAlpacasJamison,Pa. Home-215-918-0339 Cell-267-614-9620 http://www.alpacanation.com/gentlegrange.asp

To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.comFrom: libby@alpacafarm.comDate: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:40:15 -0500Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: everything! :)

Hi Heather,I would agree with Kathy. Most of the time twins are aborted and not carried to full term. Not many cases of twins making it all the way and surviving, but it does happen from time to time. I can't think of more than 4 sets of twins in our industry that have made it so it's quite rare that they make it. Most are lost in mid to late pregnancy. I'm not a vet but I don't see her problem as a progesterone problem either. These animals just are "built" to successfully carry twins. When a vet tells me he/she sees twins (which doesn't happen often), I'm not a "happy camper" because I know how it will most likely end. Sorry to hear about your loss.By the way, Happy New Years Everyone!LibbyLibby ForstnerMagical Farms, Inc.Litchfield Ohio(330)667-3233Kathy Klay <jeffersonlaurelfarm@yahoo.com> Sent by: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com01/12/2009 07:39 AMPlease respond toAlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.comToAlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.comccSubjectRe: [AlpacaTalk] Re: everything! :)Heather, My first thought wouldn't point me at a progesterone problem with a girl that repeatedly aborts twins after successfully carrying singles....I'm pretty sure that aborting twins is more common than successfully birthing them. I am sorry for your loss though...I hope the dam is doing OK. Kathy Kathy & Earl Klay Jefferson Laurel Farm 8181 Havens Road Blacklick, Ohio 43004 (614) 855-9194--- On Mon, 1/12/09, Heather Zeleny <alpacatalk@westwindalpacas.com> wrote:From: Heather Zeleny <alpacatalk@westwindalpacas.com>Subject: [AlpacaTalk] Re: everything! :)To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.comDate: Monday, January 12, 2009, 1:45 AMHi everyone!Well I'm sorry I haven't replied much on the past few days. I'm really working hard on my fleeces! I finished some fawn I carded up a week or so ago and finally have 160 yards of 2 ply yarn, 5.7 oz., about 10-12 wpi. I really hope my speed improves!To answer about halter training, I don't know, I don't think there is one right way. I do think there are plenty of wrong ways, though. But mostly, I think going slow and gentle is the best. Definitely don't leave the halter on when you're not working with them. Yes, there will be thrashing and bucking when you start with the lead. Sometimes even when you start with the halter only. That's why I like to start as early as possible (if possible) so they are just used to it from the start. The older they are, the wilder they are, and the longer it'll take to get them trusting.Let's see. I think there was a question on greys. I don't remember what it was but anyway I am certainly not an expert. I only know what we've found in our own breeding program and what I've seen in others.But my big news tonight is that my TB girl who was bred to my DRG boy Scirocco and aborted twins, then bred back to Penumbra, aborted twins again today! Not exciting in the I'm really happy way, but exciting in that she was carrying twins again. I just hope next time she carries them to term! But I'll wait till spring to breed her now. And I'll have the vet check her out, and talk about progesterone supplementation. Looking at her history, she's only had singletons before and was kept open the year before I got her. She's only 9 or 10, not to old. If anyone has advice here, please speak!That's my news!HeatherHeather ZelenyWhite Lotus AlpacasCreswell, OR541.895.0964Holistic Farm and Elite Fleecehttp://www.whitelot usalpacas. comhttp://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ AlpacaTalk/ join[Non-text portions of this message have been removed][Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Twins

Oh, by the way, the dam is perfectly fine. She wasn't bothered a bit
by her pregnancies slipping. I think this early, they aren't
concerned. Late term miscarriages, however, and full term
stillbirths, they do know and grieve the crias. We've had more of
those than we wish...

My only annoyance is loss of production time, and that's less
important to me than Natalia's health, and she appears to be strong
and absolutely fine.

On Jan 12, 2009, at 10:11 AM, Heather Zeleny wrote:

> Ok, thanks everyone for your input on the twins question. Next
> question is, does anyone have any insight as to why she's suddenly
> implanting both embryos after only having singles previously? And,
> what to do about it?
>
> Heather

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[AlpacaTalk] Twins

Ok, thanks everyone for your input on the twins question. Next
question is, does anyone have any insight as to why she's suddenly
implanting both embryos after only having singles previously? And,
what to do about it?

Heather

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] re: female crias

I have to agree. I meant to respond to this point. We NEVER haver
adult males in with females, except when we walk them from the boys'
pasture to the girls' pasture for hand breeding. Then we take the
sire back home again immediately after.

Your male pasture doesn't need to be huge, especially if it's just
for one or two males, but they do need to be separated from the
females. It's not even advisable to house geldings with females, as
they can breed open females and since she won't get pregnant, will
over breed and can cause serious uterine damage, infection, or worse.

Best of luck!
Heather

On Jan 12, 2009, at 8:00 AM, Wyatt Black wrote:

> Hi Janice,
> Do I understand correctly, you have the momma and her little girl
> and the stud all together?
> Wow, I would separate them right away. Not only can you run the
> risk of a uterine infection on momma if she is bred too early after
> birthing (or too often), but the stud can continue to breed her
> right up through her pregnancy and then you run the risk of
> possibly injuring the fetus, causing premature labor, and a whole
> host of other troubles- including permanent injury to the female.
> And, it is very possible the male will try to breed the little girl
> if the momma is adamant about refusing him and that could kill her.
>
> Your male could be sweet as honey but he is still a male and driven
> to reproduce, he won't hesitate to breed his daughter or think
> about her age.
>
> I don't mean to scare you, and I know people do field breed- but
> they remove the male after the female is confirmed pregnant.
> Get a nice gelded llama who has been with girls and a gelding for
> your boy and keep them apart. Just better all around I think.
> Slainte~
> Rachelle
>
> Black Magic Alpaca Ranch
> Honesty, Integrity, Quality
> Wyatt & Rachelle Black
> P.O. Box 457
> 6500 Digier Road
> Lebec, CA
> 93243
> (661-248-6568)
> wyattblack@earthlink.net
> http://pasturemusings.blogspot.com

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[AlpacaTalk] re: female crias

Hi Janice,
Do I understand correctly, you have the momma and her little girl and the stud all together?
Wow, I would separate them right away. Not only can you run the risk of a uterine infection on momma if she is bred too early after birthing (or too often), but the stud can continue to breed her right up through her pregnancy and then you run the risk of possibly injuring the fetus, causing premature labor, and a whole host of other troubles- including permanent injury to the female.
And, it is very possible the male will try to breed the little girl if the momma is adamant about refusing him and that could kill her.

Your male could be sweet as honey but he is still a male and driven to reproduce, he won't hesitate to breed his daughter or think about her age.

I don't mean to scare you, and I know people do field breed- but they remove the male after the female is confirmed pregnant.
Get a nice gelded llama who has been with girls and a gelding for your boy and keep them apart. Just better all around I think.
Slainte~
Rachelle

Black Magic Alpaca Ranch
Honesty, Integrity, Quality
Wyatt & Rachelle Black
P.O. Box 457
6500 Digier Road
Lebec, CA
93243
(661-248-6568)
wyattblack@earthlink.net
http://pasturemusings.blogspot.com

female crias
Posted by: "houckj@aol.com" houckj@aol.com
Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:18 pm (PST)
Since I've never had one before it has only just now occurred to me that
I am going to have to separate my herd now; something I've never had to
do before. So not very happy about that. What age do I need to start
thinking about separating female baby from papa? Hopefully not anytime
real soon, as I am going to have to fence in another area to do that :-(.

Janice, sure wishing I had never gelded Charlie Brown's boy, now that CB
is gone, I could really use that unrelated male now. But they were
starting to mix it up by the time the baby boy was about a year old and
I didn't have the space or the desire to separate my small herd.

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: everything! :)

Hi Heather,

I would agree with Kathy. Most of the time twins are aborted and not
carried to full term. Not many cases of twins making it all the way and
surviving, but it does happen from time to time. I can't think of more
than 4 sets of twins in our industry that have made it so it's quite rare
that they make it. Most are lost in mid to late pregnancy. I'm not a vet
but I don't see her problem as a progesterone problem either. These
animals just are "built" to successfully carry twins. When a vet tells me
he/she sees twins (which doesn't happen often), I'm not a "happy camper"
because I know how it will most likely end.

Sorry to hear about your loss.

By the way, Happy New Years Everyone!

Libby

Libby Forstner
Magical Farms, Inc.
Litchfield Ohio
(330)667-3233

Kathy Klay <jeffersonlaurelfarm@yahoo.com>
Sent by: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
01/12/2009 07:39 AM
Please respond to
AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com

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Subject
Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: everything! :)

Heather, My first thought wouldn't point me at a progesterone problem with
a girl that repeatedly aborts twins after successfully carrying
singles....

I'm pretty sure that aborting twins is more common than successfully
birthing them. I am sorry for your loss though...I hope the dam is doing
OK. Kathy

Kathy & Earl Klay
Jefferson Laurel Farm
8181 Havens Road
Blacklick, Ohio 43004
(614) 855-9194

--- On Mon, 1/12/09, Heather Zeleny <alpacatalk@westwindalpacas.com>
wrote:

From: Heather Zeleny <alpacatalk@westwindalpacas.com>
Subject: [AlpacaTalk] Re: everything! :)
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 12, 2009, 1:45 AM

Hi everyone!

Well I'm sorry I haven't replied much on the past few days. I'm
really working hard on my fleeces! I finished some fawn I carded up a
week or so ago and finally have 160 yards of 2 ply yarn, 5.7 oz.,
about 10-12 wpi. I really hope my speed improves!

To answer about halter training, I don't know, I don't think there is
one right way. I do think there are plenty of wrong ways, though. But
mostly, I think going slow and gentle is the best. Definitely don't
leave the halter on when you're not working with them. Yes, there
will be thrashing and bucking when you start with the lead. Sometimes
even when you start with the halter only. That's why I like to start
as early as possible (if possible) so they are just used to it from
the start. The older they are, the wilder they are, and the longer
it'll take to get them trusting.

Let's see. I think there was a question on greys. I don't remember
what it was but anyway I am certainly not an expert. I only know what
we've found in our own breeding program and what I've seen in others.

But my big news tonight is that my TB girl who was bred to my DRG boy
Scirocco and aborted twins, then bred back to Penumbra, aborted twins
again today! Not exciting in the I'm really happy way, but exciting
in that she was carrying twins again. I just hope next time she
carries them to term! But I'll wait till spring to breed her now. And
I'll have the vet check her out, and talk about progesterone
supplementation. Looking at her history, she's only had singletons
before and was kept open the year before I got her. She's only 9 or
10, not to old. If anyone has advice here, please speak!

That's my news!
Heather

Heather Zeleny
White Lotus Alpacas
Creswell, OR

541.895.0964

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece
http://www.whitelot usalpacas. com
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ AlpacaTalk/ join

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Monday, January 12, 2009

Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: silver spot vs white spot / New Gray Database Website

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RE: [AlpacaTalk] Re: everything! :)

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RE: [AlpacaTalk] RE: halter training

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] RE: halter training

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Twins

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RE: [AlpacaTalk] Re: everything! :)

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [AlpacaTalk] Twins

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[AlpacaTalk] Twins

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] re: female crias

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[AlpacaTalk] re: female crias

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