alpacas: 12/09/05

[Alpacasite] Dog attack!

Hi sitters,

I have some sad news to report, and also a reminder how determined and
devastating domestic dogs, that are running in a pack, can be.

Last week some dear friends and clients of mine, just had the terrible
misfortune of having a pitbull attack on their alpacas and llamas.

The first night all 4 male alpacas, 1 yearling llama and their 2 pygmy
goats were killed. These were kept in two different fields. They were
both at work, during the attack, but got back just in time to witness
the aftermath, as the dogs had stayed to eat on the goats. My friend was
able to shoot one of the dogs, a lab/shepherd mix, but the pitbull that
was with it, got away.

4 days later, this pitbull returned with another pitbull (perhaps also
at the first attack, although they didn't see it) and they killed the
only pregnant female alpaca they owned, by cornering her in the barn.
Well, she was damaged so badly, she had to be put down. Her almost 6
month old cria also got bit on one of her back legs, but they were able
to scare the dogs away before any more were attacked or killed. These
are juvenile dogs, that have not been in the area long. To say they are
devastated is and understatement, as they tried to do everything right
and fenced for the predators in the area, mostly coyotes.

I now have the only three animals they have left, here for safe
keeping, the cria and two llamas, until something can be done.
They had 4"x4" woven fencing, and those dogs actually wiggle though that
small hole. If they hadn't seen it themselves, they never would have
believed that that was how they got in and out.

They think they finally know who owns the dogs, a neighbor, but the
wheels of justice turn slowly, and they have to wait till the first
officer that took the first report comes off of vacation before anything
can be done. It sounds really strange to me, but that was what they were
told.

My friends have been financially struggling for a while as they suddenly
became the guardians of their three small grandkids, and then one was
out of work for over 4 months. Of course with all that, they just didn't
have the money to renew the insurance on their alpacas this year, when
the finances went south. So I suspect the only way they will get
anything back is if they sue the dogs owners, and then who knows if they
will ever be able to collect. The irony is he had just gotten a new job
two days before the attack or he would have been home. Not that that
might have helped as my understanding is pitbulls attack in silence.
This is second alpaca attack I know about personally and both people
that experienced it, said they never heard a thing till they went
outside. Even their inside dogs didn't bark.

So of anyone knows of any experienced LGD's that are available, any
breed, please let me know. They still want to continue in the alpaca
business, but it is going to be tough, maybe even a couple of years
before they get financially able again. They want to really reinforce
their fencing and you know the price of that will not be cheap. Plus
they won't bring their animals back until they can find at least couple
of LGD's to help keep them safe.

The cria that was bitten is thankfully doing well, though this is the
first day she is walking without a pronounce limp. And she is stuck to
her llama companions like glue, even though she is now living with
several alpaca moms and crias. It's very sad really, to see those three
startle at everything.

So please take this to heart. Even those living in the most urban of
areas need to put up defenses against domestic dogs. Unlike wild
predators, they kill for sport, not to eat, and if they get inside your
fence, will slaughter and chase until there isn't anything left to chase.

Hopefully posting this will help someone else from going through this
horror.
Tawny Bott
Abra-Cadabra Alpacas
303-621-9656
http://www.abra-cadabraalpacas.com
http://www.alpacanation.com/abra-cadabraalpacas.asp
<http://www.alpacanation.com/farmsandbreeders/03_viewfarm.asp?name=10304>
Kiowa, CO.
Home of Bay Black, Multi-Blue ribbon winner, SRR's Mikado Rose,
Mutli-Blue Ribbon and Reserve Color Champion, Royal Peruvian Montaro,
Blue Ribbon and Reserve Color Champion, Ala Kazam
and introducing Blue Ribbon Winner, Full Peruvian, Lt. Rose Grey, Bandit
of Grace

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Alpacasite] Re: Farm and Ranch Guide decisions

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, Jan Sherrill <pacamom@l...> wrote:
>
> Just remember that as long as this line is on your email, you aren't
anonymous:
>
> X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.40
>
>

Jan, that is the IP address for Yahoo. Try it http://66.94.237.40

Contrary to what some might have us believe, it is indeed possible to
to be anonymous on the Internet (unless you are the Government). A
hotmail, yahoomail or other similar email address will not give a
personally indentifiable IP in the header.

Most groups simply ignore the trolls.

John Merrell
Gateway Farm Alpacas
http://www.gateway-alpacas.com
Alpaca, a natural elegance...

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Re: [Alpacasite] Adverse reactions in cria to CDT shot

This is the reason that I never like to mix two treatments, whether they
be vaccines, or other treatments. I prefer to know what element is
causing the problem, or the improvement.

Chris Mills wrote:
> Patrick,
> Were they ever able to determine which vaccine caused the reaction, the CD&T or the rabies, or was it due to a chemical combination of both? Sometimes when I hear of these (sad) reactions/deaths, it makes me wonder about the stability of the vaccine----was it stored under proper temperature conditions, was the bottle contaminated, was the bottle out of date, could it be a bad batch, etc. So many things to think about. Such a hard way to learn a lesson. Just another reason why research is so important.
> Have a good day,
> Chris
>
> Chris Mills
> Outback Alpacas
> 507 Peck Rd.
> Spencerport, NY 14559
> 585.392.3639
> kusisqa@rochester.rr.com

--
^\ Cathy
_^\_ Norwoods' Melodie Hill
_-/ \ llamas & colored angora goats
{_ \ http://members.aol.com/melodiehll
\ \ Lama Information Exchange Newsletter
\ \ http://members.aol.com/lamainfoex

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Re: [Alpacasite] Anyone giving BVD vaccine?

I can't imagine why anyone would do this, given the decided lack of any sort
of research into either BVD or vaccines for BVD in alpacas!

Barrie Hanslip
Sooke, BC

>
> So, the question is, who out there is using BVD vaccine. What is your
> experience? Does the vaccine provide any protection in alpacas? Any
> adverse reactions to the vaccine?

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[Alpacasite] Re: Farm and Ranch Guide decisions

Just remember that as long as this line is on your email, you aren't anonymous:

X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.40

Jan Sherrill
Celestial Alpacas
Cental Coast of California
Templeton

>I get more business by telling the plain truth than with lies and
>half truths.
>
>
>--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, "Jeannie Wells" <jeannie@b...>
>wrote:
>>
>> You've got a heck of a personality you're showing. Do you expect
>people to
>> want to do business with you when you speak to others like this?
>I can say
>> I don't want to.
>> It's not surprising that you're "anonymous"---I'd be embarrassed
>to be
>> identified, too, if I had just said the things you said.
>>
>> Jeannie Wells
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
>[mailto:Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com] On
>> Behalf Of sharonkennels
>> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 5:35 PM
>> To: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [Alpacasite] Re: Farm and Ranch Guide decisions
>>
>>
>> Steve get real. Who died and made you God?
>> How do you read the minds of the people who order the farm and
>ranch
>> guide? Are you Jesus Crist come back early?
>> So the farm and ranch guide cost umpteen dollars to produce, so
>> what, is it your money? No it is the money that we members pay.
>>
>> If the people who pay for leads find out that the leads have no
>> acreage, maybe they should see my success. I did not pay for a
>lead
>> but had someone with no acreage get a F And R guide which they
>would
>> not have bought, then phoned me to ask about alpacas and I sold
>them
>> acreage at a 150 percent profit.
>> All from my farm and ranch guide ad.
>>
>> I suggest you members of the marketing comittee wake up and look
>at
>> the real world.
>> Raise the price of the ads. Charge people more for the web site
>> listing. Cut out the tv ads which by the way point people to
>> www.alpacainfo.com where they will now be asked to pay for sending
>> out our advertising.
>> Why should we give a worthless plan like ripping off potential
>> customers for year.
>>
>> Get real people. We farmers who elected you are not going to drop
>> out. We are going to go the courts and kick you out.
>>
>> Sharon Kennels.
>> I am anonymous so as not to get banned.
>> But your gestapo leader will ban me anyway.
>> Goodbye
>>
>>
>>
>> --- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hull, TimberLake Farms.
>> Inc" <steve@t...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Kim, I hear your concern on the Farm and Ranch Guide (F&RG)
>> mailing
>> > fee, but consider that about 30% (or more) or the F&RGs have
>been
>> > sent out to people with absolutely no intention of raising
>> > alpacas. That guide costs a lot of money both for printing and
>> > mailing (I think $30-40 or so). Prior to now, there has been no
>> fee
>> > for the guide nor a fee for the mailing cost.
>> >
>> > Secondly, a lot of people who get (and pay for) the leads
>complain
>> > that the many (majority?) of the leads are people with no
>acreage
>> or
>> > no intention of raising alpacas. The people who purchase the
>> leads
>> > from AOBA ask us to "qualify" the leads better. We thought we
>> were
>> > doing this by asking about the size of the farm, but frankly
>> people
>> > "say" they have 100 acres when they only have a 1/4 acre lot.
>> >
>> > Can we really afford to send out this cost of a publication with
>> no
>> > qualifications whatsoever? The Marketing Committee spend many
>> nights
>> > and many long discussions on exactly this issue. They
>recommended
>> to
>> > the board, and the board agreed that we would send out the guide
>> > free, but attach a small mailing fee ($9.95).
>> >
>> > If they do not want to spend that small sum, we are still
>> collecting
>> > names, addresses so that we can send out other lower cost
>material.
>> >
>> > Yes, we expect that the total numbers of F&RGs sent out will go
>> down,
>> > but we expect that the numbers of qualified leads will increase
>> > tremendously. Let's give it try this way for a year and then we
>> do
>> > plan to re-evaluate.
>> >
>> > Erin McCarthy may have additional comments as she spend many,
>many
>> > nights discussing this with the marketing committee.
>> >
>> > Steve H.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > At 03:18 PM 12/08/2005, you wrote:
>> > >Hi Janet,
>> > >I also ask people that visit my farm how they found me. After
>> > >reviewing the new membership levels before renewing this year, I
>> > >contacted past clients and visitors that said they had found me
>in
>> > >the F&R Guide to inquire what they thought about a fee
>associated
>> > >with receiving the information packet. The ones that had sent
>for
>> > >the AOBA packet said they would NOT have paid to receive it.
>> > >I think the F&R Guide has been a valuable marketing tool for me
>in
>> > >the past when there was not a charge to interested parties, and
>I
>> do
>> > >understand that things need to change financially for AOBA with
>> > >regard to the free mailing. I believe mailings will
>significantly
>> > >decrease as people won't want to pay to receive advertising, as
>> you
>> > >point out, and more prospective new breeders will find web sites
>> > >useful as their source for locating existing farms. Not sure
>what
>> > >changes we will see for 2007 renewals, but it would be
>reasonable
>> to
>> > >deduct that if the Guide is mailed at no cost again, the cost to
>> > >advertise in it will go up. Should be interesting to hear what
>> > >people think after this year and to see how the numbers of
>> > >advertisers and Guides mailed out changed.
>> > >Kim
>> > >Columbine Ranch, Morrison, CO
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, "Dream Chaser Alpacas"
>> > ><hufford@d...> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > I know this has been discussed on the site previously, but I
>> have
>> > > > recently had a complaint from someone interested in alpacas
>> about
>> > >AOBA
>> > > > requiring interested parties to "pay for AOBA's advertising".
>> > >This
>> > > > person has informed me that they would not ever pay to have
>> > >someone
>> > > > elses advertising sent to them....and the price of nearly
>$10
>> to
>> > > > receive the advertising material is outrageous. One farm
>> visitor
>> > > > stated there were only 5 farms listed in their area they
>would
>> be
>> > > > visiting and if they had had to pay for the guide, they
>> wouldn't
>> > >be
>> > > > visiting them unless they had learned about them another
>way.
>> As
>> > >his
>> > > > wife said, "I wouldn't pay 2 bucks a farm just for names!"
>> > > >
>> > > > This is of high concern to us as a small alpaca farm. Four
>of
>> the
>> > >six
>> > > > contacts made by us with prospective buyers this past year
>was
>> > >through
>> > > > our ad in the guide (including one from Canada) and one was
>> from
>> > >the
>> > > > online farm site listing. And although we are not actively
>> > >pursuing
>> > > > sales currently, we have tried to show our visitors that
>even a
>> > >small
>> > > > farm venture can succeed, as we have grown from 5 to 11
>> alpacas in
>> > > > just over a year, built our outbuildings, and begun agisting
>> > >animals.
>> > > > We try to help them understand what is entailed and what
>they
>> can
>> > > > realistically expect. Then we refer them to farms we believe
>> > > > are "reliable" to purchase animals or research further, and
>we
>> > >refer
>> > > > them to a couple of alpaca sites to learn the "good, bad,
>and
>> the
>> > > > ugly".
>> > > >
>> > > > Most of our visitors are not looking for a get rich scheme,
>> they
>> > >are
>> > > > researching a possible change in lifestyle for their
>families
>> and
>> > >a
>> > > > future income - which will at least allow them to live
>> comfortably
>> > >and
>> > > > as some have said, spend more time with their families.
>> > > >
>> > > > Since the anouncement of the changes in policy, we have also
>> asked
>> > >our
>> > > > visitors if they received the guide or just accessed us on
>> line,
>> > >and
>> > > > if they would have paid for it if necessary. ALL have said
>they
>> > >would
>> > > > not have paid for the guide. At least two have bought into
>> > >alpacas,
>> > > > one a dispersal herd. The others are continuing their
>research,
>> > >three
>> > > > of them are on this site. This is at least four people who
>> might
>> > >not
>> > > > have found our farm if they had to pay for the guide.
> > > > >
>> > > > Since our ad in the guide is paid for by us with the
>intention
>> and
>> > > > understanding that our listing be made available to possible
>> > >future
>> > > > buyers and those researching alpacas as a business, we have
>> become
>> > > > even more concerned with AOBA charging $9.95 for the guide
>> under
>> > >the
>> > > > ruse of shipping. I ship packages to Alaska, and sometimes
>> that
>> > > > doesn't even cost me $9.95.
>> > > >
>> > > > Does anyone else share these concerns? If what our farm
>> visitors
>> > >have
>> > > > said are true, I don't see a reason to use the farm guide as
>> part
>> > >of
>> > > > our advertising plan.
>> > > >
>> > > > Janet Hufford
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility
>of
>> > >the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of
>each
>> > >message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or
>> Yahoo.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas
>alpacas@a...
>> > ><http://aaalpacas.com>http://aaalpacas.com
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit
>>
>><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
>> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > Steve . . . .
>> >
>> > TimberLake Farms, Inc.
>> > Tom Cameron, D.V.M. & Steve Hull, Ph.D.
>> > Edmond, Oklahoma
>> >
>> > A Full Service Alpaca Farm Including Seminars And Consulting
>> >
>> > www.timberlakefarms.net
>> >
>> > e-mails: mailto:steve@t...
>> > mailto:tom@t...
>> >
>> > Farm Telephone: 405 341-8444
>> > Farm Cell Telephone: 405 550-3023
>> > Farm Fax: 405 330-8444
>> >
>> > note: opinions made here are not and cannot be construed to be
>> > specific veterinary advice, diagnosis or treatments. Both Tom
>and
>> > Steve strongly suggest always checking with your own
>veterinarian.
>> >
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>> List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@a...
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>
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--
Jan Sherrill
Celestial Alpacas
Central Coast of California
Templeton
mailto:pacamom@lightspeed.net

805/238-2628

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Re: [Alpacasite] Adverse reactions in cria to CDT shot

Ok I know these are not dogs but :-) I am a breeder of Leonbergers and we
do limited vaccinations. We follow Dr Jeans Dodds protocol and one of the
things we really stress with our puppy owners is never do vaccinations and
Rabies at the same time. Wait a week or more in-between. We also will not
do rabies before 6 months of age. So I don't know how vacinosis works in
Alpacas but is something to consider
Lori
www.heronview.4t.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Mills" <kusisqa@rochester.rr.com>
To: <Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Alpacasite] Adverse reactions in cria to CDT shot

> Patrick,
> Were they ever able to determine which vaccine caused the reaction, the
> CD&T or the rabies, or was it due to a chemical combination of both?
> Sometimes when I hear of these (sad) reactions/deaths, it makes me wonder
> about the stability of the vaccine----was it stored under proper
> temperature conditions, was the bottle contaminated, was the bottle out of
> date, could it be a bad batch, etc. So many things to think about. Such
> a hard way to learn a lesson. Just another reason why research is so
> important.
> Have a good day,
> Chris
>
> Chris Mills
> Outback Alpacas
> 507 Peck Rd.
> Spencerport, NY 14559
> 585.392.3639
> kusisqa@rochester.rr.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Patricks' Pastures Alpaca Ranch & Habitat
> To: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 8:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [Alpacasite] Adverse reactions in cria to CDT shot
>
>
> Cathy,
>
> He was 7 months old. We questioned doing it but the vet recommended it
> who was very familiar with Alpacas. Live and learn...it won't happen
> again here.
>
> Jim Patrick
> Patricks' Pastures Alpaca Ranch & Habitat
> 3030 N. Trinity Rd.
> Denton, TX 76208
> 940-323-1011 (Ranch Office)
> 214-505-0754 (Jim Patrick's Mobile)
> patrickspastures@verizon.net
> www.patrickspastures.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Cathy Stephenson
> To: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 10:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [Alpacasite] Adverse reactions in cria to CDT shot
>
>
> Newbie asking a question, If the cria is still under the influence of
> the
> natural immunities why give the shot so early? If it could cause
> reactions
> in the very young should it be postponed a bit. Just a question Cathy
> StephenOakes Farms
> Chester. SC
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Patricks' Pastures Alpaca Ranch & Habitat"
> <patrickspastures@verizon.net>
> To: <Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 6:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [Alpacasite] Adverse reactions in cria to CDT shot
>
>
> > Evelyn,
> >
> > We had a cria drop dead 15 minutes after 7Way and a rabies shot was
> given.
> >
> > Jim Patrick
> > Patricks' Pastures Alpaca Ranch & Habitat
> > 3030 N. Trinity Rd.
> > Denton, TX 76208
> > 940-323-1011 (Ranch Office)
> > 214-505-0754 (Jim Patrick's Mobile)
> > patrickspastures@verizon.net
> > www.patrickspastures.com
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: E. Rich
> > To: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 5:08 PM
> > Subject: [Alpacasite] Adverse reactions in cria to CDT shot
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> > Yesterday, our vet gave CDT shots to our first crias. One of them,
> a
> > boy, coughed immediately afterwards and had intermittant bad
> coughing
> > spells for the rest of the day. We wondered if he was allergic to
> the
> > shot. Also, the other cria, a girl being bottle fed, has lost her
> > appetite today. Both crias seem very tired. Is this normal after a
> CDT
> > shot? Our vet said it would stress their immune systems.
> >
> > Anyone else notice adverse reactions in a cria after receiving CDT
> shots?
> > Please advise.
> >
> > Thank you for your reply.
> >
> > Evelyn Richardson
> > Silver Waters Alpaca Ranch
> > Lake Fork, TX & Delhi, LA
> > LA Deep South Alpaca Show
> >
> >
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Re: [Alpacasite] Re: An actual alpaca question!

What? We have alpacas here?

OK, this is a great question. It seems to me that first of all, a fertility guarantee is not the same as a live birth guarantee. However, if I buy a maiden alpaca who comes with a fertility guarantee, and then resell that animal before she is bred, I have the right to rely on the fertility guarantee in transferring the animal to my buyer. If it turns out that she is not fertile (or, as most contracts read, have the "equipment" to become pregnant and deliver a live cria), my buyer has the right to come back to me for reparation, and I have the right to go back to the farm who sold her to me to cover that reparation (assuming the respective reparations are comparable in nature and value). In law, this is considered a "third party action." I had the right to rely on the seller's warranty, and in so doing, would naturally express to any prospective buyer that the female in question was "guaranteed" to be fertile. I am responsible to my buyer, but my seller is responsible to me.

The major difference between livestock warranties and warranties of other products is that the conditions in which livestock are held may compromise the warranty. If my buyer can prove to a court that the animal was appropriately housed, fed and maintained, and that her health was not compromised by any action or environmental condition, and I can prove the same for the animal's tenure at my farm, then it seems to me that the warranty should be held valid.

Judith Korff
LadySong Farm
2473 Bunker Hill Rd.
P.O. Box 33
Steamburg, NY 14783
(716) 354-6355
A Holistic Management Farm
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[Alpacasite] Re: Pet quality or fiber quality?

This was my thought when I read the original posts about "pet
quality". It implies, well, a pet ;). Do people keep sheep or cows
as pets? Perhaps a few, and I consider my goats pets, but in fact
the only reason I have them is to help with the darn blackberry
bushes. Perhaps there are people out there who keep an alpaca or two
as a pet, not worrying about fiber or breeding, or will be in the
future. I personally prefer non-breeders or fiber animals :)

Heidi Christensen
Graham WA

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Coursey" <kathryn@c...>
wrote:
>
> Referring to non-breeding animals as 'pet quality' has always
kinda struck
> me wrong. To me, a "pet" has no use other than to eat and be
cuddled.
>
> However, our non breeders are still of use in fiber productions and
NEEDED
> companion animals.
>
> Wouldn't it be more accurate to describe our non-breeders as "fiber
quality
> ?
>
> Kathryn & Robert Coursey
> kathryn@c...
> Chipola Alpacas
> In the Panhandle of Florida
> www.chipolaalpacas.com
> (850) 639-6809
> I am a source for weeping willow trees
> And white mulberry trees.
>
> I will defend to your death,
> Your right to make yourself look
> Like a total Jack-Ass
>

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Re: [Alpacasite] Re: Pet Quality Definition

Hi Susan,

Thank you for writing about your boys. They sound like the type of pets I hope for! If you have time, perhaps you could write about their personalities. Can alpacas really be pets? Will they bond with people?

Regards,
Rosann Ferris

Susan Gawarecki <llamaladysg@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Pet quality" is whatever a breeder says it is--in
other words, animals that for whatever reason
shouldn't be in the reproductive gene pool. I own two
pet quality alpacas, both geldings. Both have lovely
fiber that has won awards in fleece competitions.

"Pip" is pet quality because his breeder decided he
didn't have the size desired. Otherwise he's a really
nice boy, and I've been asked why he was ever gelded.

"Yelka" is a beautiful rose gray with blue eyes. His
sire is a blue-eyed white who went deaf, so the
breeder decided that was a line that shouldn't be
propagated any further.

I've see other pet quality alpacas that had coarse
fleece, birth defects (polydactyl), and were blue-eyed
whites. Interestingly, ALL the pet quality alpacas
I've seen have been male.

Susan Gawarecki
Pathfinder Farm
Andersonville, TN

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[Alpacasite] Re: An actual alpaca question!

Hi Susan! If you want guarantees to be transferable to subsequent
purchasers, then the original contract should say this.

Bob Fish
Flying Pony Alpacas,LLC
Boyertown, PA 19512

The issue is usually handled with a phrase stating that the
guarantees --- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Retzer"
<schnzr@y...> wrote:
>
> I'm wondering what the industry practice is on this scenario. I
buy a
> maiden female, and she comes with a fertility (live birth)
guarantee.
> I then sell this female before she has been bred. If this female
then
> turns out to be infertile, I would be responsible for reimbursing
the
> person to whom I sold the alpaca. Question--what about the
original
> fertility guarantee that I received when I purchased her from the
> original seller?
>
> Sounds kind of confusing even to me. I haven't encountered this
> situation, but when thinking of all the "re-selling" that goes on,
> just wondered what thoughts are out there on this.
>
> Susan Retzer
> Singalong Alpacas
> If you don't know the words...
> just HUM!
> Jacksonville, IL
> http://www.singalongalpacas.com
>

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[Alpacasite] Anyone giving BVD vaccine?

Since we are on the topic of vaccines, here's a question for the list.

I've been asked off-list twice in the last week if I am giving BVD
vaccine. I'm not, at least not yet.

Fortunately, since I'm still in the process of building facilities at
our new farm I haven't been to a show since MAPACA. No BVD here! I
don't have to worry about BVD again until March, when I hope to have
the new farm finished, be moved in, and have the time to show again.

So, the question is, who out there is using BVD vaccine. What is your
experience? Does the vaccine provide any protection in alpacas? Any
adverse reactions to the vaccine?

Neil
A Paca Fun Farm
Mt. Airy, Maryland
Sugarloaf Mountain, Maryland
www.apacafunfarm.com

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[Alpacasite] Re: Adverse reactions in cria to CDT shot

Laura,

You ask an excellent question. The answer gets a little involved, but
here is my quick take on it.

First, what do I mean by "reaction". Obviously, the whole point of
giving a vaccine is to get an immunologic reaction. Part and parcel
of that immunologic reaction may be that the alpaca may feel a little
punk (now there's a word I haven't used in a while ;-) after the shot.

Second, lets look at "reaction" meaning adverse reaction. Most of us
have had tetanus shots. Most of us have had a minor ache in the arm
getting the shot the next day. A few of us have had a really sore arm
after a tetanus shot...........this would be an adverse reaction.
Further, a small number of us have had a very sore arm with swelling
and pain..........this would be a severe adverse reaction. In passing
I mention that the reactions I am using as an example are
inflamatory, not allergic reactions, which is a different and more
involved discussion.

With the above definitions, let me give you examples of what kinds of
reactions (meaning adverse reaction in this case) have led me to
withhold CD&T shots in my own herd. In adult alpaca I have had
animals limp for the next day or two. I had one female cush most of
the time for a 2 day period. She would get up and walk normally if I
prompted her, but otherwise cushed in the barn.

One cria last spring, after being given his first CD&T shot acted a
bit aggitated, sneezed a few times, and then cushed for the next hour
or so. Yes, we did watch him very closely during this time for signs
of breathing difficulty.........none thank goodness.

I would consider all of these adverse reactions, worthy of special
consideration.

Now, going back to another point that many of us have stressed in the
past, giving any type of shot involves a risk vs benefit evaluation.
If I thought that the risk of disease was high I would still give
vaccines to prevent disease despite these adverse reactions. In this
particular case, given my experience with the diseases that CD&T
covers in central Maryland and my own stocking ratios, husbandry
practices and other factors, I have concluded that (again, in my herd
only) the risk of giving CD&T is not worth the risk of the adverse
reactions I am seeing (and the more severe reactions that may be
coming if I continue giving shots to these animals).

So, to finally answer your question, as defined above I don't mind a
reaction, but an adverse reaction to CD&T in my herd means that
alpaca is not going to get that vaccine again.

Hopefully more clear this time.........

Neil
A Paca Fun Farm
Mt. Airy, Maryland
Sugarloaf Mountain, Maryland
www.apacafunfarm.com

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, Laura Coussens <kcalpaca@p...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Neil,
>
> Is a reaction simply acting a little slow for a day or two after
being
> vaccinated?
> Or. is it something more severe?
> Occasionally, I'll have an animal act a little tired, but I think
that's
> fairly normal, isn't it?
>
> Laura Coussens
> Kissin' Coussens Alpacas
>
> mpcpneilp wrote:
>
> >Cathy
> >
> >The short answer to why a cria is given a CD&T shot so young is
that
> >even though the cria's immune system can't produce significant
> >amounts of antibodies it can still learn to recognize "not self".
> >Think of early CD&T shots as priming the pump.
> >
> >Reactions to vaccines can happen at any age. In our own herd when
an
> >alpaca (at any age) has a reaction to a vaccine, it the last shot
of
> >that vaccine that the alpaca gets.
> >
> >Neil
> >A Paca Fun Farm
> >Mt. Airy, Maryland
> >Sugarloaf Mountain, Maryland
> >www.apacafunfarm.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

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[Alpacasite] Re: An actual alpaca question!

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Retzer" <schnzr@y...> wrote:
>
> I'm wondering what the industry practice is on this scenario. I buy
a
> maiden female, and she comes with a fertility (live birth)
guarantee.
> I then sell this female before she has been bred. If this female
then
> turns out to be infertile, I would be responsible for reimbursing
the
> person to whom I sold the alpaca. Question--what about the original
> fertility guarantee that I received when I purchased her from the
> original seller?
>
> Sounds kind of confusing even to me. I haven't encountered this
> situation, but when thinking of all the "re-selling" that goes on,
> just wondered what thoughts are out there on this.
>

This is an eventuality that you will want covered clearly in your
purchase contract.

It would be a mistake to assume that any guarantees extended to the
first buyer would transfer to the second, unless this is explicitly
stated.

Most contract contain language defining the conditions on which any
guarantees are based. It becomes infinitely more complicated if there
are a chain of purchasers between the original sale and the discovery
of any problems. Therefore, it makes sense that each seller in the
chain assumes the risk of any guarantees that are offered.

I am not an attorney, so take this with a grain of salt. I would
however probably retain an attorney if someone that I had not made a
sale to was trying to hold me to a guarantee that I had not made to
them.