Hi all and Janice,
We too have our two studs and gelding in a pasture that has a joining
fence with the female/cria pasture. We have never had a problem with pacing,
humming, etc. because this is always how its been. Please try to separate
your herd with males in one pasture, females in the other. It is pretty
inexpensive to do it yourself - get the 5'-6' green metal rods and 2" x 2" welded
wire fencing and set up a divider for the boys. You won't be sorry, I
promise.
SUSAN
In a message dated 1/19/2009 9:48:59 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
wyattblack@earthlink.net writes:
Hi Janice,
I wrote my email yesterday without seeing this one first. I will attempt to
address your points one at a time, okay? Please, other knowledgeable breeders
on this site, back me up on this.
you wrote:
---------------------
Thanks for your reply Rachelle. And yes i have to say that all mine are
together....together....<WBR>.I have so few left - only 2 females, o
gelding that in order to separate them someone would have to be alone
and I don't think that would go over very big with the one left alone.
Plus, I only have hay in one place and water in the other place; and tho
I have 2 separated pastures (what a joke calling that space a "pasture"
is!) they are both small and my guys like to have room to roam
about....as I'm sure they all do. The woods (for shade) are in one area
and the hay/loafing shed is in the other. So not really a good set up
right now. Since I've not before had a female cria it has not been an
issue up to now.
----------------------------------------
I say:
Janice,
separate them. The gelding with the male and the girls with the cria. I know
MANY ranches who keep their breeding studs in very small 'pastures' and they
are just fine as long as there are not too many males crowded into one tiny
space. We have two studs together in a small pen and then we have our two
bachelor runs for the rest.
Buy an EZ up and a large tarp. Secure the EZ up firmly in the ground with
stakes and cover all three sides and the roof with the tarp. Stretch it tightly
to prevent flapping and use bungee cords to secure it. Lay down a thick bed
of straw inside and that will be good enough for now.
You wrote:
----------------------------------------------------------
"Also what my understanding is is that once a female is pregnant, the
male no longer has any interest - something about the hormonal change
signaling that she is no longer open. My males (I've only had 2 not
gelded so I am far from knowledgeable) have never tried repeatedly to
mate. I see them chasing/mating for a few days and then see no more of
that activity for a very long time. If I see it again after a number of
months, I assume a fetus was lost and they are trying again. And I also
did not think a male would be interested in/attracted to a female who
was not "receptive"?w
----------------------------------------------------------
I say:
I would ask, are you there all the time, I mean- ALL the time? do you watch
them all night? Often breeding behavior goes on in the middle of the night
when no one is watching. I know that's when my boys will often work over the
younger males in the pen. I have had to break up a few male 'rapes' in the
middle of the night in my time.
Yes, they will breed all throughout the pregnancy. The drive to breed will
overide the knowledge that she is bred already if they are together. I would
venture a guess that they are breeding FAR more often than what you are
seeing. And the stud, if left alone with a female over long periods of time, will
at some point not take no for an answer and WILL force the female down.
You wrote:
----------------------------------------------------------
"So that was my question, at what age would a young female start
producing the pheromones that signal the male that she is "ready"?"
----------------------------------------------------------
I say:
A male doesn't need a female to 'be ready'. They can/will attempt to breed
anything they can overpower. And if it is a female, all the better.
Your cria is at risk at one month of age. The hormones can be there or not.
If the male wants to breed and can get the cria down, he will. And he will
probably kill her in the process.
You wrote:
----------------------------------------------------------
"Well I could put the male and the gelding together in one pasture, but
they are mixing it up way too often for my likes, and confined to a
smaller area I fear it would get worse. My gelding, who had the
terrible slash wounds on his neck this summer, had a ripped up ear a few
weeks ago. I know that came for those 2 mixing it up. Funny, he is so
much bigger than the stud, but he always seems to be the one with the
injury. So that leaves me with leaving the stud all alone, which I have
been told a thousand times is extremely stressful to alpacas - to be
without their herd/buddies, *and* leaving the gelding in with the girls
which you also say not to do."
----------------------------------------------------------
I say:
Have you had your stud's fighting teeth trimmed lately? He could seriously
injure someone with those teeth!
If your stud is on the same fenceline as the other alpacas, he will not be
alone. He will pace, he will hum, and he will be stressed for a while. But he
will adjust eventually as he sees that he can touch noses with everyone. I
think you have created a monster. He believes the girls are "his" because he
has been with them all the time. So he will fight any male in the same area
with him to "protect" his girls.
You can try leaving the gelding with the girls. If he was gelded early in
life and didn't have the experience of breeding at all, he probably won't. I
have my gelded llama boy in with my mommas and crias. He is the perfect
nanny/watchdog and has never tried to breed. He was gelded early and never bred
before.
You wrote:
----------------------------------------------------------
" I certainly have not had a glut of
crias! I usually seem to get one about every 2 yrs or so. I never see
any excessive mating or chasing going on, in fact see it rarely."
----------------------------------------------------------
I say:
Janice, I am going to say some things here that might seem harsh. I want you
to know that I do NOT say them to hurt you, only to try and convey the
seriousness of the situation as I see it.
As I remember, you have not had a thriving cria yet, right? I think it's
because of the situation you have put your females in. Your males 'moaning and
miserable' without their girls is just good breeding practices.
Alpacas cost money. If you don't have the money to adequately care for them,
then perhaps it is time to re-evaluate the situation. Regular vet checks,
reproductive exams and fighting teeth removal are just good breeding practices.
Keeping your males and females separated is just sound breeding practice.
If you don't adhere to good breeding protocols you can expect the kind of
results you are seeing.
Believe me, please do, I know first hand how difficult it is. Times are
tough, and money is short. In our ten years breeding we have never had an excess
of money! In fact, we jokingly call our little ranch "Alpacas on a
Shoestring" because that's how broke we've been over the years. 3 layoffs, and my
husband now working for a 68% pay cut have put our backs to the wall many times.
But we found a wonderful vet who will allow is to keep a running tab, and as
long as we are paying a tiny amount every month, we are fine. Right now the
tab is down to only $800! Which I am sure means we will have an emergency right
around the corner.
Alpacas cost money.
We know that all too well, because right now I have 2/3 of my precious herd
for sale because we cannot afford to care for them properly. Re-evaluation
indeed. Our philosophy has always been this: When you become a steward of
something that cannot speak for itself, and is totally dependant on you for it's
existence- you are obligated to provide the appropriate level of care that
comes with such a serious responsibility.
So, we have to sell in order to fulfill that obligation. Sad, yes. Necessary
for my alpacas health and future, yes.
Somewhere though I can't find it right now I read that you wrote about 'big
breeders' who breed their females the day after birthing.
Janice, in my 10 years of breeding and traveling all over the country and
speaking to thousands of breeders in my volunteer alpaca committee work, I have
*never*, *ever* heard of a reputable alpaca breeder doing this. It just
isn't good business. It can cause problems with the female that cost money and
can shorten her productivity. Who would do that?
You can hear all sorts of stuff out there. I have heard horrible things that
some people have done, but they are not *established breeding protocol* and
any breeder with some integrity will shudder.
Sure they do it in the wild, but they also have an over 50% mortality rate!
Something I do not want as a breeder who invested a LOT of money in my herd.
I know you love your alpacas, it is apparent that you do in everything you
write. And you have hard choices ahead. I am sure you will find a way to do
the right thing for your treasures.
If you ever need anything, please know that I am here for you.
Best of luck,
Rachelle
Black Magic Alpaca Ranch
Honesty, Integrity, Quality
Wyatt & Rachelle Black
P.O. Box 457
6500 Digier Road
Lebec, CA
93243
(661-248-6568)
_wyattblack@earthlinwyatt_ (mailto:wyattblack@earthlink.net)
_http://pasturemusinhttp://pastuhtt_ (http://pasturemusings.blogspot.com/)
4a.
Re: female crias
Posted by: "_houckj@aol.com_ (mailto:houckj@aol.com) " _houckj@aol.com_
(mailto:houckj@aol.com)
Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:09 pm (PST)
<<<<Hi Janice,
Do I understand correctly, you have the momma and her little girl and
the stud all together?
Wow, I would separate them right away. Not only can you run the risk of
a uterine infection on momma if she is bred too early after birthing (or
too often), but the stud can continue to breed her right up through her
pregnancy and then you run the risk of possibly injuring the fetus,
causing premature labor, and a whole host of other troubles- including
permanent injury to the female.
And, it is very possible the male will try to breed the little girl if
the momma is adamant about refusing him and that could kill her.
Your male could be sweet as honey but he is still a male and driven to
reproduce, he won't hesitate to breed his daughter or think about her age.
I don't mean to scare you, and I know people do field breed- but they
remove the male after the female is confirmed pregnant.
Get a nice gelded llama who has been with girls and a gelding for your
boy and keep them apart. Just better all around I think.
Slainte~
Rachelle>>>>
<<<<I have to agree. I meant to respond to this point. We NEVER haver
adult males in with females, except when we walk them from the boys'
pasture to the girls' pasture for hand breeding. Then we take the
sire back home again immediately after.
Your male pasture doesn't need to be huge, especially if it's just
for one or two males, but they do need to be separated from the
females. It's not even advisable to house geldings with females, as
they can breed open females and since she won't get pregnant, will
over breed and can cause serious uterine damage, infection, or worse.
Best of luck!
Heather>>>>
I will take what you both have said to heart, but right now there is not
really much that is acceptable that I can do to separate them. I have
planned and hoped to fence another connected area this spring....but
that was so I could rotate them off the only bit of green pasture they
have in the summer, and which is overgrazed and I am sure totally
infested. So that still won't solve the dilemma of needing to separate
them. Maybe when I have more that would be more feasible, but with only
4 (and 1/2) it is just lonely.
I have given some consideration to Rachael's suggestion of getting a
guard llama for protection, but if he/she is separated from part of the
herd, not much use as a guard. Can't really afford more to take care of
and feed right now anyway.
So the question remains....if the ideal cannot be done separating all
males and females, at what age would Merry become attractive to her papa?
any more input guys?
Thanks! Janice
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