Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: female crias
I am in complete agreement with everything you said, Rachelle. Also,
it is possible to put up a relatively inexpensive fence with T-posts
and cattle panels. NOT hog panels! You need the 5 foot high cattle
panels.
We have had males who fought so much with others that we had to
actually pen them in a stall and only a 10x20 exterior pen. That was
only for extreme cases, but the males who were confined were fine.
We never never stall or pasture our males and females together. Once
male crias are weaned, they go in the weanling boys' pasture. We've
had an 8 month old weanling successfully breed an 8 month old female
back in the day when we believed what we were told., that males can't
breed until at least 18 months....
I also have NEVER heard of any breeder putting a female with a sire
the day after she delivers. A minimum of 14 days after delivery is,
well, the minimum. And then only if she's receptive at that time. If
she refuses at all, we try again after two or three days. The average
time of rebreeding after delivery is 21 days, but actually the range
of receptivity is 14-28 days, sometimes even more.
And I do have to agree with Rachelle about the financial question.
Certain minimum standards must be kept. One is keeping males separate
from females. even geldings. Geldings can and will breed females and
since those breedings never produce a fertilized ova, the female
never gets pregnant and is subject to serious overbreeding and
infection. The act of a male breeding a female literally tears up the
uterine lining. The ferttilized ova implants after approximately 17
after breeding occurs. Too many breedings will keep the uterine
lining always raw, and infection is likely. Scarring is certain. That
could also be a reason for the poor production you've experienced,
the uterine lining is so scarred that it can't support a healthy
cria. I realise "production" is not your concern here, but certainly
your girls' health and well being is.
Again, please look up your local AOBA affiliate for local support!
I'm almost certain you have other alpaca breeders in your area. You
really do need to reach out to them. Most breeders are happy to help
and answer questions.
Best wishes,
Heather
On Jan 19, 2009, at 9:48 AM, Wyatt Black wrote:
>
> Hi Janice,
> I wrote my email yesterday without seeing this one first. I will
> attempt to address your points one at a time, okay? Please, other
> knowledgeable breeders on this site, back me up on this.
>
> you wrote:
> ------------
> Thanks for your reply Rachelle. And yes i have to say that all mine
> are
> together....
> gelding that in order to separate them someone would have to be alone
> and I don't think that would go over very big with the one left alone.
> Plus, I only have hay in one place and water in the other place;
> and tho
> I have 2 separated pastures (what a joke calling that space a
> "pasture"
> is!) they are both small and my guys like to have room to roam
> about....as I'm sure they all do. The woods (for shade) are in one
> area
> and the hay/loafing shed is in the other. So not really a good set up
> right now. Since I've not before had a female cria it has not been an
> issue up to now.
> ------------
> I say:
> Janice,
> separate them. The gelding with the male and the girls with the
> cria. I know MANY ranches who keep their breeding studs in very
> small 'pastures' and they are just fine as long as there are not
> too many males crowded into one tiny space. We have two studs
> together in a small pen and then we have our two bachelor runs for
> the rest.
> Buy an EZ up and a large tarp. Secure the EZ up firmly in the
> ground with stakes and cover all three sides and the roof with the
> tarp. Stretch it tightly to prevent flapping and use bungee cords
> to secure it. Lay down a thick bed of straw inside and that will be
> good enough for now.
>
> You wrote:
> ------------
> "Also what my understanding is is that once a female is pregnant, the
> male no longer has any interest - something about the hormonal change
> signaling that she is no longer open. My males (I've only had 2 not
> gelded so I am far from knowledgeable) have never tried repeatedly to
> mate. I see them chasing/mating for a few days and then see no more of
> that activity for a very long time. If I see it again after a
> number of
> months, I assume a fetus was lost and they are trying again. And I
> also
> did not think a male would be interested in/attracted to a female who
> was not "receptive"?
> ------------
> I say:
> I would ask, are you there all the time, I mean- ALL the time? do
> you watch them all night? Often breeding behavior goes on in the
> middle of the night when no one is watching. I know that's when my
> boys will often work over the younger males in the pen. I have had
> to break up a few male 'rapes' in the middle of the night in my time.
>
> Yes, they will breed all throughout the pregnancy. The drive to
> breed will overide the knowledge that she is bred already if they
> are together. I would venture a guess that they are breeding FAR
> more often than what you are seeing. And the stud, if left alone
> with a female over long periods of time, will at some point not
> take no for an answer and WILL force the female down.
>
> You wrote:
> ------------
>
> "So that was my question, at what age would a young female start
> producing the pheromones that signal the male that she is "ready"?"
> ------------
> I say:
> A male doesn't need a female to 'be ready'. They can/will attempt
> to breed anything they can overpower. And if it is a female, all
> the better.
> Your cria is at risk at one month of age. The hormones can be there
> or not. If the male wants to breed and can get the cria down, he
> will. And he will probably kill her in the process.
>
> You wrote:
> ------------
> "Well I could put the male and the gelding together in one pasture,
> but
> they are mixing it up way too often for my likes, and confined to a
> smaller area I fear it would get worse. My gelding, who had the
> terrible slash wounds on his neck this summer, had a ripped up ear
> a few
> weeks ago. I know that came for those 2 mixing it up. Funny, he is so
> much bigger than the stud, but he always seems to be the one with the
> injury. So that leaves me with leaving the stud all alone, which I
> have
> been told a thousand times is extremely stressful to alpacas - to be
> without their herd/buddies, *and* leaving the gelding in with the
> girls
> which you also say not to do."
> ------------
> I say:
> Have you had your stud's fighting teeth trimmed lately? He could
> seriously injure someone with those teeth!
> If your stud is on the same fenceline as the other alpacas, he will
> not be alone. He will pace, he will hum, and he will be stressed
> for a while. But he will adjust eventually as he sees that he can
> touch noses with everyone. I think you have created a monster. He
> believes the girls are "his" because he has been with them all the
> time. So he will fight any male in the same area with him to
> "protect" his girls.
> You can try leaving the gelding with the girls. If he was gelded
> early in life and didn't have the experience of breeding at all, he
> probably won't. I have my gelded llama boy in with my mommas and
> crias. He is the perfect nanny/watchdog and has never tried to
> breed. He was gelded early and never bred before.
>
> You wrote:
> ------------
> " I certainly have not had a glut of
> crias! I usually seem to get one about every 2 yrs or so. I never see
> any excessive mating or chasing going on, in fact see it rarely."
> ------------
>
> I say:
> Janice, I am going to say some things here that might seem harsh. I
> want you to know that I do NOT say them to hurt you, only to try
> and convey the seriousness of the situation as I see it.
> As I remember, you have not had a thriving cria yet, right? I think
> it's because of the situation you have put your females in. Your
> males 'moaning and miserable' without their girls is just good
> breeding practices.
>
> Alpacas cost money. If you don't have the money to adequately care
> for them, then perhaps it is time to re-evaluate the situation.
> Regular vet checks, reproductive exams and fighting teeth removal
> are just good breeding practices. Keeping your males and females
> separated is just sound breeding practice.
> If you don't adhere to good breeding protocols you can expect the
> kind of results you are seeing.
>
> Believe me, please do, I know first hand how difficult it is. Times
> are tough, and money is short. In our ten years breeding we have
> never had an excess of money! In fact, we jokingly call our little
> ranch "Alpacas on a Shoestring" because that's how broke we've been
> over the years. 3 layoffs, and my husband now working for a 68% pay
> cut have put our backs to the wall many times. But we found a
> wonderful vet who will allow is to keep a running tab, and as long
> as we are paying a tiny amount every month, we are fine. Right now
> the tab is down to only $800! Which I am sure means we will have an
> emergency right around the corner.
> Alpacas cost money.
>
> We know that all too well, because right now I have 2/3 of my
> precious herd for sale because we cannot afford to care for them
> properly. Re-evaluation indeed. Our philosophy has always been
> this: When you become a steward of something that cannot speak for
> itself, and is totally dependant on you for it's existence- you are
> obligated to provide the appropriate level of care that comes with
> such a serious responsibility.
>
> So, we have to sell in order to fulfill that obligation. Sad, yes.
> Necessary for my alpacas health and future, yes.
>
> Somewhere though I can't find it right now I read that you wrote
> about 'big breeders' who breed their females the day after birthing.
> Janice, in my 10 years of breeding and traveling all over the
> country and speaking to thousands of breeders in my volunteer
> alpaca committee work, I have *never*, *ever* heard of a reputable
> alpaca breeder doing this. It just isn't good business. It can
> cause problems with the female that cost money and can shorten her
> productivity. Who would do that?
> You can hear all sorts of stuff out there. I have heard horrible
> things that some people have done, but they are not *established
> breeding protocol* and any breeder with some integrity will shudder.
>
> Sure they do it in the wild, but they also have an over 50%
> mortality rate! Something I do not want as a breeder who invested a
> LOT of money in my herd.
>
> I know you love your alpacas, it is apparent that you do in
> everything you write. And you have hard choices ahead. I am sure
> you will find a way to do the right thing for your treasures.
> If you ever need anything, please know that I am here for you.
> Best of luck,
> Rachelle
> Black Magic Alpaca Ranch
> Honesty, Integrity, Quality
> Wyatt & Rachelle Black
> P.O. Box 457
> 6500 Digier Road
> Lebec, CA
> 93243
> (661-248-6568)
> wyattblack@earthlin
> http://pasturemusin
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