Hi Sue,
Like I said - I'm an RN and have been giving shots to humans for almost 20 years now (worked as a vet tech for 3 years prior to that) and I am really good at giving shots.? But I have gone all the way through the skin and have not made it through the skin.? And I only knew when I felt the wetness on the animal after I had injected the whole dose onto its fiber.?? And I do use Marty's methods, but I still like the cap method.?
I will take Dr Andersen's word for it, but what I know about pharmacology, I guess I have a hard time believing it takes that much longer to enter the bloodstream.? I keep thinking about something one of the vets I used to work for (who was about the most intelligent man I ever met) said to me?- "Give that shot ID"? I asked - intradermal?? He answered - "No, In the Dog"
Heidi Christensen
WingNut Farm Alpacas
Graham WA
(253) 846-2168 or (253) 592-0200
www.wingnut-alpacas.com
-----Original Message-----
From: andesdandies <sue@andesdandies.com>
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 4:17 pm
Subject: [AlpacaTalk] Re: injections
Hi Heidi,
I got that info from Dr. Andersen at a seminar I attended about 5
years ago. He said it takes much longer to enter the bloodstream and
does not reach the therapeutic level needed for sufficient length of
time if it is IM vs SC. Horses, pigs, and cattle are not susceptible
to Menigeal worm, so the Ivermectin is given for a different reason
to those species.
If you use the skin tent method you feel the needle go through the
skin so you won't end up with it in the fiber.
Best regards,
Sue Zelazny
Andes Dandies, LLC
http://www.andesdandies.com
Middleport, NY
--- In AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com, Radched@... wrote:
>
> I suppose getting it misplaced in the fiber is a worry with any
method.? I always make sure to part the fiber so I see skin.
>
> I found many references to Ivermectin being given in the muscle to
horses,? cattle, pigs, even elephants and frogs.? Please give the
reference to how its not affective against m-worm if given
intramuscularly.? Not in m-worm area, just curious.
>
>
> Heidi Christensen
> WingNut Farm Alpacas
> Graham WA
> (253) 846-2168 or (253) 592-0200
> www.wingnut-alpacas.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: andesdandies <sue@...>
> To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 3:07 pm
> Subject: [AlpacaTalk] Re: injections
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> Just a precautionary note - I know of people who have used the cap
> over the needle method and gotten animals with Meningeal worm. My
> conjecture is that it is because you don't know for sure you are
> putting the drug in the subcutaneous area. Let's face it, different
> animals have different fleece and skin thicknesses, especially at
> different times of year. It could just as easily end up in the
fleece
> or in the muscle. In the fleece, useless. In the muscle, good
chance
> of an abscess and also delayed therapeutic value of the drug, and
> shorter time in the bloodstream, not recommended.
>
> I have found no problem at all giving all my shots by myself, even
to
> adult breeding males who are visiting from other farms whose owners
> have told me they CANNOT be done without help -- I use Marty McGee
> Bennett's method and have no problems whatsoever. I modifiy it just
a
> bit, I like to inject with my right hand, so I wrap my left arm
> around the front of the alpaca's neck and grasp the tent of skin
with
> the left hand, then plunge the needle in and depress the syringe
with
> the right hand. I do this with the animals confined to a small area
> so they can't really go anywhere anyway, and I have good control of
> their movement. I make sure that the needle is in fact in the space
> under the skin, and this sometimes takes a little moving around of
> the needle depth depending on the age of the alpaca and the
thickness
> of its skin as well as density of fleece. If I have a spitter, I
can
> easily duck my head against the back of their neck and avoid the
> onslaught, but usually I get no reaction from my animals. They're
> used to it and the rest of their buddies are all standing around
also
> relaxed. No one is chased and no one gets a surprise jab so they
all
> remain calm.
>
> The best way to keep them all calm is to have as many animals as
you
> can in as small an area as you can, so they can't run and get all
> worked up and panicy. If you only have a few animals, make the pen
> REALLY small so they are as close to each other as you can, it
really
> helps!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sue Zelazny
> Andes Dandies, LLC
> http://www.andesdandies.com
> Middleport, NY
> Where the best way to predict the future is to 'criate' it!
>
> --- In AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com, "Wendy Edwards"
> <wendy.edwards@> wrote:
> >
> > hi Heidi - thanks for describing this procedure one step further
> for non-medical types like me - the detail about the bevel makes
all
> the difference because it is exact, and i know what to look for
> >
> > i always have to wait for someone else to come over and help with
> injections, and sometimes the wait is too lengthy for comfort - now
i
> have confidence i can do this by myself
> >
> > and thanks to everyone else who has contributed to this
discussion -
> i have always had a horror of injections and have avoided doing
them
> myself - i'll be going out to the catch pen today with meds in
hand -
> no more waiting for someone else
> > thanks again
> > Wendy
> > DreamWeaver Alpacas
> > BC
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Heidi Christensen
> > To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 9:41 AM
> > Subject: [AlpacaTalk] Re: injections
> >
> >
> >
> > I am also an RN, and used the "human" way of injecting for a
> short
> > while. Until I had an animal get away from me with a syringe
> > sticking out of her shoulder. And of course a couple times when I
> > poked the needle all the way through the skin.
> >
> > My main issue is that I am by myself. If I had someone to hold
> > while I pinched the skin, and put the needle in at a 75 degree
> angle
> > etc etc that would be fine. But I don't, so I use the needle
> cover
> > method. Take a needle cover, cut off enough to see the whole
> bevel
> > of the needle (the slanted part), draw up the medication, replace
> > the cover, and give the injection. You do need to be a bit
> careful
> > not to poke yourself, but I just draw everything up individually
> in
> > the catch pen.
> >
> > The only problem I have had was when I cut the cover too short,
> and
> > discovered that the bevel was still covered slightly - the
> > medication would go up inside the cover instead of in the animal.
> > Since I figured that out, I haven't had any problem. I also found
> > that needle sizes have longer or shorter bevels - I think I ended
> up
> > using a 22 gauge for most things because the 20 gauge looked like
> it
> > needed to be cut so long that it wouldn't go SQ. I always give it
> in
> > the shoulder, about half way down, because I have to hold at the
> > same time.
> >
> > Heidi Christensen
> > WingNut Farm
> > Graham, WA
> >
> > --- In AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com, Heather Zeleny <alpacatalk@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I'll be honest, I haven't tried this technique, I've only seen
> it
> > > described, written by a veterinarian. And, I hate to admit, I
> read
> > it
> > > on the website of a person who I really... don't wish to send
> any
> > > traffic his way.
> > >
> > > And I might add, it is described as just poke, push, and done,
> > with the
> > > poking being in the thick skinned areas of the shoulder or
> rump.
> > The
> > > alpacas' skin in those areas is apparently about 1/2" thick, so
> if
> > you
> > > jab 'em and push the plunger, the meds will end up SQ as
> directed.
> > For
> > > IM injectibles, definitely use a 1" needle and inject into the
> > muscle
> > > of the rump or shoulder.
> > >
> > > Heather
> > >
> > >
> > > On Oct 18, 2008, at 10:40 AM, houckj@ wrote:
> > >
> > > > Trying to make sure I totally understand the injection
> technique
> > > > recently being discussed. I believe I am correct in my
> > distillation of
> > > > the posts that I should get 1/2 inch, 20 gauge needles and
> > just "poke"
> > > > as Heather says? I can never seem to get a large
> enough "tent"
> > of
> > > > skin,
> > > > using Marty McGee's technique; can't say how many times I have
> > > > injected thru thick fiber and had it come out the other side,
> > even
> > > > when
> > > > I was sure I had the skin tented. They just don't seem to
> have
> > much
> > > > loose sking. If I am correct and can just "poke" oh how
> simple.
> > > > Someone mentioned using the thigh - I would avoid that area
> as
> > I have
> > > > been told it is too easy to hit something wrong there. But
> the
> > elbow
> > > > sounds feasible. Still simply walking by and "poking".....I
> > *know* I
> > > > can do that :-).
> > > >
> > > > Warmly, Janice in GA
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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