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Friday, January 16, 2009

[AlpacaTalk] RE: Supplies to keep on hand/shearing

<<<<Yogurt can be administered for a upset
belly just like probias which is another product you can keep on hand,
but remember to give these only if your vet says it is ok.
Hope these ideas help.

Mary Jane Fox>>>>

Thanks Mary Jane for all your input. My problem is no vet to ask. The
one vet that would help me last summer with my girl's severe eye injury
made it very clear that she has all the horse business she can handle
and is not at all interested in "learning a new species". The old cow
vet I used to use was willing, but made so many mistakes and I lost so
many I just stopped calling him and he has retired now (and I think
moved to WY) anyway. The 2 other horse/cow vets (they are the only ones
that do farm calls) I have spoken to around here in the past several
years are also not interested in working with alpacas. I had one tell
me that he just didn't work with llama folks (there are no other alpcas
around here that I know of) because they "always expect me to come right
away and are just unreasonable in their expectation". OhhhKay.

But as a people nutritionist I cannot imagine why giving yogurt or
probiotics could be a problem or a question for a vet? My qustion
rather would be how do we know it is getting to the areas where it is
needed? I don't know a thing about the physiology of the gut in
ruminants (heck I'm still wondering just how many stomachs do they
have?). I know in humans the trick to supplementing with probiotics is
to get the live little critters to survive the stomach acid and get to
the intestines where they are needed.

I'd like to discuss shearing with you and anyone else that has done
their own. For one, I simply can no longer afford to pay the shearer!
I skipped year before last for that reason and it was a miserable hot
summer that found me out 2x every single day soaking them down with the
hose and buying a $300 fan for them (I could have had them sheared for
that amt of $$, but by then it was too late).
And still I had one to lay down and die after giving birth - don't know
if it was heat stress but that is what I suspect. So I bit the bullet
last year and had them sheared. I couldn't afford it then; even less so
this year. They don't have much of a coat now, but by summer they will.
We still have chilly nights up thru May, tho it can get quite hot
during the day. So I usually have him come close to the end of May;
last year it was mid-June and vrey very hot before he could get to me.

<<<<I do some shearing here and have started to on the older girls that do
not grow fleece, some farms have me leave 1/2 inch on them so I just tip>>>>

How old? My oldest girl is about 10. What is considered old for an
alpaca? When is she too old to safely reproduce? What is the average
expected life span? My dd asked me just last night and I didn't have a
clue as to their aging process or their life span. Are you tipping with
electric shears?

<<<<I use
the dog blankets to put on the animals if they are having difficulty
keeping themselves warm. Takes alittle bit of time for some animals that
have never had one on to get use to them. But they cover the chest and
back areas great.>>>>

Do you tie them somehow to keep them on? I can't quite picture an
alpaca walking around with a blanket draped over it without shaking it off.

Sorry for all the questions. I am on a mission to get this right once
and for all so I can move on to other things that need my attention as well.

Thanks! Janice

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] spammer

Well, sorry about that everyone. I've removed the spammer.

Heather

On Jan 16, 2009, at 5:43 AM, destories wrote:

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RE: [AlpacaTalk] Colostrum supplement

Hi Janice,

I've been to several seminars where this was a well discussed point and this
is the summary of the notes that I have up and through last weekend's
Symposium

at U. C. Davis, in Davis, California. I'm not a vet.just an alpaca herder
who likes to have a good understanding of what we need to keep these guys
healthy.

Vet's tell us that bovine, llama, caprine, or sheep's colostrum will do in
a pinch.that is cow, llama, goat, sheep.

But, there are some alpaca colostrum replacements (powdered), out there and
there are sources of frozen alpaca colostrum as well.

The important thing to know about using these other colostrums is that when
you test for IgG you have to use the appropriate plate or it looks like your
cria has no immunity.

In other words, you will need a goat plate for goat's colostrum, a llama
plate for llama colostrum, a bovine plate for cow's.etc.

You MUST tell your vet that your cria has been given this "alternate" source
colostrum and have them use the right plate.

Also, the IgG test has to be read understanding how long after birth your
cria is being tested as the reading jumps just after the colostrum is given

and then falls in a "slide down" fashion quickly over about a month's time
from when the colostrum was administered to the date of testing. After 6
weeks or so,

the reading falls to nothing as the cria's own body begins to "grow" its own
immunities. So a perfectly healthy cria of 4 weeks old or so might have an
IgG that read

only "240" but it would have had a "2400" or so at the point when it first
was given the colostrum. There are charts that the vet can use to
interpret whether the number you have

indicates that the cria has good immunity for its age and colostrum intake
date.

The important fact to get is that the cria's own immunity will replace the
IgG's it had as a new born over time, so that the "falling" igG is perfectly

normal and you don't need to administer plasma or take any heroic measures
to change that reading .you just have to interpret it in "time" as well

as "immunity level" and with the appropriate plate for the type of colostrum
administered.

Hope this helps get a handle on this issue. You can keep the frozen stuff
over a year, but then should refresh it.

Allison Moss-Fritch

New Moon Alpacas

Santa Clara, CA

From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of houckj@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 8:02 PM
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AlpacaTalk] Colostrum supplement

As i posted yesterday I am looking to stock up on necessities for
emergencies. After 2 yrs of beyond-my-control neglect of all my animals
I am finally having enough spare minutes and brain cells (what's left
anyway) and trying to get back on track. While I am figuring out the
worming protocol (among other things) that I want to use and getting
what I need to keep that on track, the surprise birth of Merry has me in
the mind of being better prepared (since I have no vet back up).
Luckily she and mama are doing fine (fingers crossed), but my last cria,
about a year and a half ago, was found nearly dead and mom *was* dead
:-(. A friend with goats miraculously had some colostrum in her freezer
and was able to get it over to me, but it took a couple of hours.
Another friend closer by brought over some fresh goat's milk to feed the
cria to try and get it up and going. That baby was taking its bottle
just fine, great sucking; but still only made it 4 days. It was very
very sad....both he and mom were very unique and beautiful. Anyway, I
am thinking I should keep some colostrum supplement on hand.

Do any of you do this and if so what kind do you prefer? Is there
anything I should know to look out for? I am looking for instance at
"Sav-A-Caf" colostrum. It has bovine serum and "high quality" colostrum
from state certified dairy herd. Then there is multi species colostrum
supplement. Would the bovine serum be a problem, or a good thing?

Thanks! Janice

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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RE: [AlpacaTalk] RE: Supplies to keep on hand

Hi again,

Vets at UCD suggest giving the "covexin 8" which has both tetanus and CD for
various strains

Of the "C" part. That was just in the symposium. I think Fort Dodge makes
it.

They were questioned about its safety and whether it was "overkill" and the
response from

The vets was NO, this is OK to give to your alpacas and they need most of
the stuff that is in it;

What is extra won't hurt them.

In any case, that is the newest information given out by University of
California Vet school at

Their annual symposium

Allison Moss-Fritch

New Moon Alpacas

Santa Clara, CA

From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of houckj@aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 8:03 AM
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AlpacaTalk] RE: Supplies to keep on hand

<<<<It is good to have on hand, though. I also keep
epinephrine.........a very very dangerous drug!!!! It's only about
$4.00, but if you give vaccines, worth having on hand. It should
only be used in cases of anaphylactic shock! It can kill and must be
dosed very very carefully and only if the animal is actually going
down right after receiving a vaccine>>>>

Well Yikes! All I can say is that is enough right there to make me
never give vaccines again! Which vaccine can cause such a severe
reaction? I think the only vaccine I have given is the CD/T and I
believe, from what I have I read here, that I am going to throw that out
and get just plain old tetanus from now on. Which brings another
question to mind. We 2 leggeds only are recommended to get our tetanus
every 7-10 yrs I think it is, why do we give it to our alpacas every year???

Thanks for the tip about straw vs hay. Never heard that before. But I
never have any straw around. I just threw the hay down on the concrete
floor after Merry was born and it was so cold those first few night.
And they keep a nice thick bed of hay out in their loafing shed (where
the hay rolls are).....what they don't eat turns into a nice thick layer
on the ground that keeps them dry when the ground is wet. I didn't mind
when hay is cheap but the past several years hay has gone thru the roof.
What I used to pay $25 for I now pay $70 for! So I cringe when I see
so much of it on the ground. I have no other dry place to store rolls,
so about once or twice a year I have several large rolls brought in; I
have to take the fence down (poor planning and ignorance) to let the
truck/trailer in and then roll them into the shed onto pallets. this
means they get all the hay they want. Which, contrary to the horses
lasts them a long time as they would rather be out grazing and browsing
than standing in the shed eating hay.

I've seen that kind of heater but sounds good for an ailing adult or at
risk cria in the cold. But you have given me an idea, I'm sure those
are expensive and not something I could put money into right now for
so;mething that would be used so seldom. I do have several old electric
blankets that I no longer use (prefer down comforters now), I fold one
in half and use under the sheet on my massage table. I could lay one
out on the barn/shed concrete floor and cover with another blanket (to
keep their toes from possibly tearing) and straw/hay. I even have an
old electric heating pad I could put down for a tiny cria; they move off
it, but I would think would be smart enough to find their way back to
that warmth.

Funny about yours being in the barn in the day time! That is strange.
Mine love sunbathing during the day. Baby and all doing find this
morning with wind chills of minus 10 last night! Jumped up this mornign
to go check on everyone; saw what looked like a lump of grey out in the
shed and in a panic went running; thankfully she stood up and started
walking towards me. Whew. One chicken has her comb frozen and wasn't
looking too good even yesterday, but everyone else seems to be hanging
on fine. Another 24-36 hrs before we break freezing. Can't use any of
the faucets or hoses; bringing up frozen water in the buckets and will
be carrying hot water in tea pots out all day today. Don't know how you
guys up north make it thru your winters! And yeah, its the wind that
gets me.

Warmly (wishful thinking), Janice who has her fingers crossed her 300
new strawberry plants will survive first being under water for 3 days
and now having their noses frozen hard.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] RE: Supplies to keep on hand


In a message dated 1/16/2009 11:06:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
houckj@aol.com writes:

Well Yikes! All I can say is that is enough right there to make me
never give vaccines again! Which vaccine can cause such a severe
reaction?

Anything can cause and anaphylactic reaction. We have all heard of or known
people who react to bee stings or penicillin, I personally swelled up like a
balloon from a prescription NSAID. There are some vaccines which are "hot"
or tend to cause more reactions(lepto in dogs comes to mind). CD/T, in my
experience, does not tend to be a hot vaccine. Now the simple truth is anyone
can react to any vaccine at any time, so even if your animals have not had a
reaction the last 50 times you vaccinated them, they may (or may not) react
to number 51. On the reverse if an animal reacts to a vaccine it will always
react and should not be revaccinated. I do keep epinephrine on hand and I
take it out with me when I vaccinate, (interestingly the most likely time to
react is at the second vaccination, the animal was sensitized by the 1st
vaccine and has an allergic response to the second..but I digress) now the dose my
vet recommended for epi is 1mg/kg which translates to 1ml/100kg (or
1ml/220lbs of alpaca) so what I do is on my little note pad that I take with me that
lists who is getting what, I have the animals weight, the amount of whatever
they are getting and next to their name I have their calculated epi dose,
written, incase I need it. That way if I do every have an issue (which I
haven't knock wood) I am not fidgeting trying to calculate a dose. That is a
little trick I learned working in emergency and critical care, we always had the
resuscitation drugs listed with doses on everyone's chart just in case.

As far at tetanus goes, I believe that simply has to do with our animals
having a much higher frequency of exposure than we do (tetanus loves to live in
poo). Also immune systems differ from species to species as does natural
resistance to disease (dogs rarely get tetanus even when exposed).



Allison Aday
Asgard Alpacas
Gibsonville, NC
**************Inauguration '09: Get complete coverage from the nation's
capital.(http://www.aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000027)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: OT: tapeworms in dogs/cats


In a message dated 1/16/2009 11:36:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
faileflys@yahoo.com writes:

Janice, also note that alpacas can get tape worms too (usually only if
stressed), so you should probably check their stool as well if the
cats and dogs have been around their paddocks (especially Merry and
her mom). Sorry, I don't know how to treat it.

Morgen

Tapeworms in dogs and cats are a different species then those see in our
alpacas. The ones in dogs and cats are usually Dipylidium which the animal gets
by ingesting and infected flea. There is no other way to get them you have
to eat the flea. Dogs are also susceptible to Taenia a tapeworm they can get
from eating wild rabbits and rodents, this is much more uncommon.
The tapeworm we see in alpacas is Moniezia and Thysaniezia which the animals
pick up while grazing in an infected pasture.


Allison Aday
Asgard Alpacas
Gibsonville, NC
**************Inauguration '09: Get complete coverage from the nation's
capital.(http://www.aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000027)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[AlpacaTalk] Re: OT: tapeworms in dogs/cats

Janice, also note that alpacas can get tape worms too (usually only if
stressed), so you should probably check their stool as well if the
cats and dogs have been around their paddocks (especially Merry and
her mom). Sorry, I don't know how to treat it.

Morgen

--- In AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com, houckj@... wrote:
>
> I'm coming here because I don't know where else to turn. My cats (4
> outside, 1 inside) and my dog have tapeworms. I have been seeing them
> in their stools since summer. I was unable to get a vet to write me a
> prescription or sell me the tapeworm meds...without bringing the
animals
> in. I could not then and cannot now afford to do that.....and its not
> like I don't know a tapeworm when I see it! So I began looking for
> alternatives.
> Someone suggested that I use Safeguard for dogs and it would take care
> of the tapes in both dogs and cats.
> Since there are 5 cats and the dog is over 100# this was not cheap, but
> cheaper than the prescription that I cannot get anyway.
> However I am still seeing tapes in the inside cat and the dogs stool
> (never see the outside cats stools, but they were eat up with a bad
flea
> infestation when they came to live with me so I am quite sure they have
> tapes).
>
> What can i do? I really don't want to use that Happy Jack stuff, it
> looks wicked and dangerous....my much adored dog is old, as is the cat;
> I don't want to risk their life. I just cannot afford to take these
> animals to the vet AND pay for the very expensive meds. But I also
> cannot leave them declining full of tapes. Any suggestions? I can't
> buy it on line without a prescription. We are in serious survival mode
> here with my business totally dead for the past 4 mos and languishing
> for the entire year, going slowly slowly deeper and deeper into the
debt
> hole, now a crater.
>
> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> Janice
>

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[AlpacaTalk] RE: Supplies to keep on hand

<<<<It is good to have on hand, though. I also keep
epinephrine.........a very very dangerous drug!!!! It's only about
$4.00, but if you give vaccines, worth having on hand. It should
only be used in cases of anaphylactic shock! It can kill and must be
dosed very very carefully and only if the animal is actually going
down right after receiving a vaccine>>>>

Well Yikes! All I can say is that is enough right there to make me
never give vaccines again! Which vaccine can cause such a severe
reaction? I think the only vaccine I have given is the CD/T and I
believe, from what I have I read here, that I am going to throw that out
and get just plain old tetanus from now on. Which brings another
question to mind. We 2 leggeds only are recommended to get our tetanus
every 7-10 yrs I think it is, why do we give it to our alpacas every year???

Thanks for the tip about straw vs hay. Never heard that before. But I
never have any straw around. I just threw the hay down on the concrete
floor after Merry was born and it was so cold those first few night.
And they keep a nice thick bed of hay out in their loafing shed (where
the hay rolls are).....what they don't eat turns into a nice thick layer
on the ground that keeps them dry when the ground is wet. I didn't mind
when hay is cheap but the past several years hay has gone thru the roof.
What I used to pay $25 for I now pay $70 for! So I cringe when I see
so much of it on the ground. I have no other dry place to store rolls,
so about once or twice a year I have several large rolls brought in; I
have to take the fence down (poor planning and ignorance) to let the
truck/trailer in and then roll them into the shed onto pallets. this
means they get all the hay they want. Which, contrary to the horses
lasts them a long time as they would rather be out grazing and browsing
than standing in the shed eating hay.

I've seen that kind of heater but sounds good for an ailing adult or at
risk cria in the cold. But you have given me an idea, I'm sure those
are expensive and not something I could put money into right now for
so;mething that would be used so seldom. I do have several old electric
blankets that I no longer use (prefer down comforters now), I fold one
in half and use under the sheet on my massage table. I could lay one
out on the barn/shed concrete floor and cover with another blanket (to
keep their toes from possibly tearing) and straw/hay. I even have an
old electric heating pad I could put down for a tiny cria; they move off
it, but I would think would be smart enough to find their way back to
that warmth.

Funny about yours being in the barn in the day time! That is strange.
Mine love sunbathing during the day. Baby and all doing find this
morning with wind chills of minus 10 last night! Jumped up this mornign
to go check on everyone; saw what looked like a lump of grey out in the
shed and in a panic went running; thankfully she stood up and started
walking towards me. Whew. One chicken has her comb frozen and wasn't
looking too good even yesterday, but everyone else seems to be hanging
on fine. Another 24-36 hrs before we break freezing. Can't use any of
the faucets or hoses; bringing up frozen water in the buckets and will
be carrying hot water in tea pots out all day today. Don't know how you
guys up north make it thru your winters! And yeah, its the wind that
gets me.

Warmly (wishful thinking), Janice who has her fingers crossed her 300
new strawberry plants will survive first being under water for 3 days
and now having their noses frozen hard.

__._,_.___
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