Kati, first your confidence in your local vet should not be
diminished. You are getting good advice from people here who have
qualifications for speaking. Both Neil and Rick have given you
excellent advice. Neil is a physician with a large farm and Rick
also has a lot of cria experience.
Recall that vet school, like medical school, is only four years. Two
years of that are taken up with BS courses (basic science) - I know
as I taught them. This leaves only 24 months for vet students to do
ALL rotations on both large and small animals. Camelid medicine is
likely an afterthought at best. Unlike a physician, a vet generally
does not do any further training. So vets must do a LOT of learning
when they start out in practice. Physicians have at least three
additional years of training (residency) where they really learn.
Alpacas, in terms of immunocompetence, are best modelled after foals
who have similar issues (failure of passive transfer). Oral delivery
of cow (bovine) colostrum in the first 24 hours, especially if it is
fresh, is very likely the next best thing to the alpaca dam's
colostrum. Neil is exactly correct . . . this bovine colostrum will
not show up on the RID plate as that plate is specific for camelid
(not cow) IgG molecules. So, I would expect a low cria IgG.
However, that colostrum is appropriate for initiating the complex
reactions that initiate the cria's own immune system.
There are some vets who get rather frustrated (there are other words)
when owners understand this more than they do. However, many vets (I
feel the majority) recognize that as owners, we have the
responsibility to be on top of things and at times, our specific
knowledge will supercede the vets experience and their "book
time". I have found that many vets appreciate a brief highlight on
why you are doing (or not doing) some procedure or treatment. That
said, even if they do not know everything about all issues, a local
vet is invaluable for many emergency issues.
Rick was very correct as he said - keep her on the watch list. I
would agree not to give a transfusion.
Humm, Thanksgiving names . . . . Pilgrim, Squanto, Mayflower?
Steve H.
At 11:07 PM 12/02/2005, you wrote:
>Of course Neil is a doc (MD), I'm just an alpaca farmer.
>I do IgG testing on all crias, Neil doesn't.
>I have never needed a plasma transfer in 100+ births,
>If it were mine, and I was somewhat happy with the amount of bovine
>colostrum intake in the first 24 hours, I'd personally just keep her on the
>watch list, as plasma transfers are not without risk.
>FYI, I have used plasma once, but it was oral within the first 12 hours, and
>IgG was fine, and cria is soon to have his first birthday
>
>Rick
>--
>Rick & Pati Horn
>All American Alpacas
>Murrieta, Ca.
>http://aaalpacas.com/updates.html
>alpacas@alpacaweb.com - alpacas(at)alpacaweb.com
>(951) 679-7795
>Life is good!
>
> > From: "mpcpneilp" <mpcpneilp@aol.com>
> > Reply-To: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 04:19:01 -0000
> > To: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Alpacasite] Re: Plasma Transfusion based on bovine
> colostrum reading
> >
> > Kati
> >
> > First, a review of the basics;
> >
> > In theory, alpaca colostrum is passively tranfered only in the first
> > 24 hours. If the cria is to passively transfer antibodies from her
> > dam's colostrum (or from anything else she swallows) she must do it
> > in the first 24 hours. After that, antibodies in the gut will be
> > digested just like any other protein.
> >
> > Antibodies and antibody testing plates are very specific. Bovine
> > colostrum will supply your cria with effective antibodies, however,
> > these bovine IgG molecules will not register at all on the plates
> > used to test alpaca IgG. Alpaca plates register only alpaca IgG, and
> > bovine plates register only bovine IgG.
> >
> > Serum protein tests will measure both albumen and immunoglobulin (IgG
> > and other antibodies). Some folks have suggested getting a simple
> > protein level and subtracting the albumen portion. The remainder will
> > be a gross measure of serum immunoglobulin. This test is much less
> > specific than IgG plating, but it's easier (a simple blood draw and
> > send it to the lab). I have never used this method myself, nor do I
> > plan on doing so in the future.
> >
> > And finally, (in my opinion) the alpaca community gives
> > disproportionate attention to IgG levels. Health is not dependant
> > solely on passive transfer of IgG, though this is one important
> > element. The rest of the cria's immune system (white blood cells of
> > various kinds and other humeral factors) is also in play and not
> > dependant on colostrum. Also important are a healthy, dry, wind
> > protected environment, a good bond between mother and cria, and good
> > milk (both in quality and amount) from the dam.
> >
> > So, with that review out of the way, we know you have a healthy
> > active cria that is actively gaining weight, and the cria did get
> > some bovine colostrum in the first 24 hours.
> >
> > I can't tell you specifically what to ask your vet. I can only tell
> > you what has gone through my own mind when I have been in this
> > situation.
> >
> > If I had a cria who was given bovine colostrum, I would not have
> > gotten an (alpaca) IgG measurement. Such a measurement tells me
> > nothing, and helps me not in the least in making further decisions.
> > If for some reason I had a low alpaca IgG measurement in a situation
> > like this I would ignore it.
> >
> > I would make my decision concerning the need or lack thereof for
> > plasma transfusion solely on two factors. 1) Did the cria get
> > adequate bovine colostrum, and 2)is the cria healthy, gaining weight,
> > and in a safe and protected environment.
> >
> > Here is one other bit of information as an aside. Kati, I'm sure you
> > already know this but some of the newer breeders may not. There are
> > very experienced large alpaca farms that never measure IgG and never
> > give plasma transfusions. Those that I know personally have very
> > successful programs with very, very little cria morbidity or
> > mortality. One farm I know had about 80 cria this year. There were no
> > cria mortalities, and I've got to think that just based on odds that
> > some of those cria had low IgG levels.
> >
> > Enough from me on this topic. Usual disclaimer; not a vet, just a doc
> > who's been raising alpacas for 7 years and thinks about issues like
> > this regularly every spring and fall birthing season.
> >
> > Neil
> > A Paca Fun Farm
> > Mt. Airy, Maryland
> > Sugarloaf Mountain, Maryland
> > www.apacafunfarm.com
> >
> > --- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, "Kati" <kati.dickey@s...> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Group,
> >>
> >> I know that IgG issues have been discussed here quite a bit and
> > I've saved a number of them for reference but I'd like a little
> > help...
> >>
> >> We had a cria born Thanksgiving Day (11/24). The dam's milk did
> > not come in til the next day so we bottle-fed bovine colostrum during
> > the 1st 24 hours. We had some success with this but I would have
> > liked to have gotten more into her. Two days later we had her IgG
> > tested and today I was advised by the Vet Tech that her IgG was less
> > than a 100 and the vet recommended plasma. Now there has been
> > discussion here on different types of testing for alpaca versus
> > bovine colostrum. Additionally I know that there are different types
> > of IgG tests done on alpacas themselves. There was also something
> > discussed about measuring total protein when an animal has
> > only/primarily been fed bovine colostrum and making a decision on the
> > need for a plasma transfusion from that.
> >>
> >> The Vet Tech indicated that the less than reading was an alpaca IgG
> > test but she couldn't give me any more info relative to the issues
> > I've discussed above. She said I should call and speak with the vet
> > herself tomorrow.
> >>
> >> My vet is a small animal vet who raises llamas herself. For a
> > number of reasons, I'm afraid my confidence in her has been
> > compromised but as she lives 2 miles away and there are no other vets
> > for miles, I need to maintain a good relationship with her.
> >>
> >> So when I call her tomorrow, what specifically should I be asking
> > her? And what answers should I hear that would tell me a plasma
> > transfusion is necessary? I should mention the cria is extremely
> > active, nursing well, and has gained almost 4 pounds in the 8 days
> > since her birth. Any help would be appreciated!
> >>
> >>
> >> Kati Dickey
> >> Hummingbird Woods Alpacas
> >> Centreville, MD
> >>
> >> p.s. any ideas for a name for a cria born on Thanksgiving Day would
> > be appreciated! : )
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> > List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
> > http://aaalpacas.com
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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>
>
>
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>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
>http://aaalpacas.com
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>
Steve . . . .
TimberLake Farms, Inc.
Tom Cameron, D.V.M. & Steve Hull, Ph.D.
Edmond, Oklahoma
A Full Service Alpaca Farm Including Seminars And Consulting
www.timberlakefarms.net
e-mails: mailto:steve@timberlakefarms.net
mailto:tom@timberlakefarms.net
Farm Telephone: 405 341-8444
Farm Cell Telephone: 405 550-3023
Farm Fax: 405 330-8444
note: opinions made here are not and cannot be construed to be
specific veterinary advice, diagnosis or treatments. Both Tom and
Steve strongly suggest always checking with your own veterinarian.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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