Re: [Alpacasite] Stubborn internal parasites

We lost two males here a few years ago. Necropsy said they were loaded
with parasites despite the fact that we'd wormed everyone regularly and
had wormed these two more often when they didn't seem quite right. Our
vet felt that both these boys may have had an underlying problem like a
depressed immune system. He felt that was the only way that the rest of
the herd could be fine while these two were dead. Their depressed immune
system left them wide open to parasite infestations.

Chuck Rademacher wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>As I mentioned previously, I feel like we've almost won the war against our
>internal parasite problems. We've lost a few battles along the way, and I
>have one female at the moment that isn't responding to the prescribed
>treatment.
>
>This girl is seven years old, pregnant, with no cria at foot. She is in
>good condition with a high body score. She had a fairly high fecal egg
>count and we gave her the three-day treatment with Oxfen, a "white" drench
>similar to Panacur. This treatment has worked quite effectively on 45
>other alpacas in our herd. Three weeks after giving her the three-day
>treatment, her FEC is through the roof again. My best guess is that the
>parasites are Haemonchus, but I'm not really qualified to say with
>certainty. The rest of the herd have almost zero FEC's.
>
>Why didn't the three-day treatment work on her? Her FEC wasn't any higher
>than others where the three-day treatment did work. Is it possible that her
>internal parasites are resistant and those in the other alpacas are not? I
>know that she did not spit out any of the drench.
>
>At this point, she is on day two of a multi-day treatment using the same
>oral drench. Here are my questions:
>
>1. Should we just give her a repeat of the three-day treatment or
>
>2. should we give her a five-day treatment or
>
>3. should we give her a three-day white drench treatment plus a Dectomax
>injection or
>
>4. should we give her a five-day white drench treatment plus a Dectomax
>injection or
>
>5. would you recommend another course of action.
>
>Our vet recommends the first course of action (#1 above). I prefer either
>#2 or #3. Ignoring the indicated preferences, what would you do?
>
>Regards,
>
>Chuck Rademacher
>Auckland, New Zealand
>
>
>[
>

--
Trudy Handel
thandel@shaw.ca http://www.xanadufarms.com
Handmade glass beads http://www.fireice.ca

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[Alpacasite] Re: Anyone giving BVD vaccine?

Laurel,

I have heard this arguement against giving vaccinations, and I simply
don't understand it.

If an alpaca tests positive for BVD antibodies IT IS IMMUNE TO BVD!
An immune alpaca is not a carrier and poses now risk to it's
penmates. Further, a PI would by definition not be positive for
antibodies. Given the choice, would you want an alpaca that is still
vulnerable, or an alpaca that was immune?

Am I missing something here?

BTW, this is not to suggest that I am in favor of broadly using
vaccine for BVD at this time. I'm not.

Neil
A Paca Fun Farm
Mt. Airy, Maryland
Sugarloaf Mountain, Maryland
www.apacafunfarm.com

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, "Shouvlins" <bluebirdhills@v...>
wrote:
>
> Time is short here, so I have been whisking through posts and this
may have already been posted...so I apologize if I am repeating
something already said...
>
> One caution about using vaccine is that after using the vaccine,
your animals will probably test positive for BVD. The reason is that
the vaccine stimulates your alpaca to produce antibody to the the BVD
virus. Tests for BVD check for the presence of the antibody to that
virus, and the antibody's existence in your alpaca implies that it
has mounted an immune response to the virus and it is concluded that
it has "had" the disease. Most of us have had tetanus immunizations
and would probably all test positive for the presence of tetanus
antibodies.
>
> So before you go and immunize your herd, you might want to ponder
the consequences of your herd testing positive for BVD when it may
never have been exposed in the first place. If BVD tests become
standard for sales, moving across state lines, or stud contracts, a
positive test might interfere with all of that. The closer the test
is run to the time of immunization, the more positive the test will
probably be.
>
> If I immunized an 2 years ago and the antibody level is low, but
present nonetheless, how will that be interpreted by the individual
considering purchase of that alpaca? I guess if it were I, I would
mve on to another animal that was definitely negative.
>
> Perhaps it would make sense to test your alpacas first, and upon
receiving negative results for BVD, then immunize against it, and
document, document, document?
>
> Laurel
>
> Tim & Laurel Shouvlin
> Bluebird Hills Farm CSA & Alpacas
> 3617 Derr Rd. Springfield, Ohio 45503
> www.bluebirdhills.com
> bluebirdhills@v...
> 937-390-6127 or 937-206-3936 (cell)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: sprucealpacas@a...
> To: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 11:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [Alpacasite] Re: Anyone giving BVD vaccine?
>
>
>
>
> I have been at the Northeast Type conference all day where Dr
Steve Purdy
> did a pre-conference segment on BVD.
>
> There have been a number of emails on the subject today and I
will try to
> address them here, as well as Neil questions.
>
> I'll start off by saying that there is no clear consensus amongst
the
> experts on this disease, the appropriate tests and the
effectiveness of the tests
> in camelids. Most of the research is on cattle. Dr Evans first
identified
> BVD in llamas in 1988 so this disease has been around for a
while. We haven't
> heard much about it, I think, because it was not on our radar.
I believe the
> first (at least one of the first) case identified by Cornell in
alpacas
> happened at a farm in NY where there was a stillborn. Their
vet, who does mostly
> bovine, did a necropsy and his bovine necropsy checklist
included checking
> for BVD.
>
> I would refer you to the Summer 2005 Alpacas Magazine article on
BVD for an
> excellent overview of this disease and the Winter 2006 issue for
a description
> of the tests. The 2 PI crias we identified on our farm were
diagnosed
> through a series of PCR tests and a virus isolation test. Dams
of both crias
> came to our farm 5 to 6 months pregnant from opposite ends of the
country and
> appear to have come to our farm with the disease based on the
stage of their
> pregnancy they came here and the fact that none of our animals
are PI (these
> animals are boarders). Luck of the Irish I guess that I end up
with 2 PI's
> born on my farm, but I think it is an indicator that this disease
is throughout
> the country. We were lucky that one of the 2 PI's was a "slow
starter".
> When I took him to Tufts Vet Hospital, I requested that they run
a BVD test
> because I knew of a couple of other farms that have had PI crias
this year. If
> he hadn't been a bit off, we never would have run the test on
him and later on
> the rest of our herd and identify the second PI cria. Both
crias are now 2
> to 3 months old and doing very well (at a horse farm where they
are no risk
> to other animals).
>
> Dr Evans has been using the vaccine on several herds for years.
I cannot
> comment on how well it works or how long it is effective, but I
have the
> greatest respect for Dr Evans and can only assume he would not
use it if he didn't
> think it was effective. I am not a big proponent of
vaccinations, if we can
> avoid them. My preference would be to identify those animals
who are PI,
> preferably through PCR testing at birth. When you run an IgG
test, spend $35
> and run a PCR test on that cria.
>
> Neil asked if you should test 10 year olds. I think just about
everyone
> would say no because if they were PI, you would likely have seen
problems with
> them or their crias, but there are certainly cases in cattle
where PI cows
> have lived for years and reproduced. If you want to be sure -
run tests. A PCR
> test, which identifies acute infections (a PI cria will always
test
> positive), can be run in pools of 10 samples for $35 (Cornell's
charge). If the
> sample of all 10 is negative, end of story, testing is done and
you pay $35. If
> the sample of 10 is positive, then they start breaking the
sample down into
> smaller samples to identify the positive sample and you would be
charged based
> on the number of tests run. Cornell is very confident that
their false
> positive rate is low because of their controls. Certainly you
would not put down
> an animal based on one PCR positive test. If you are concerned
about
> pregnant females being exposed, run a serum neutralization test
(Cornell's charge:
> $13). This test identifies antibodies which indicates if the
animal has been
> exposed to the disease. I would argue that antibodies are good,
although I
> would like to know if a female has antibodies before she gets
pregnant. An
> animal that has antibodies has made its ways thru the disease, is
not
> contagious and is of no risk to your herd (unless she was exposed
during the early
> stage of her pregnancy, resulting in the possibility of a PI cria
which puts
> your farm at risk when it is born).
>
> Even though this disease has been a nightmare for my farm, I
believe there
> should not be hysteria about the disease. It is certainly a
problem, but one
> that we are now aware of and can address with education and
testing. You need
> to educate yourself about the disease and assess your level of
risk.
> Understand that like most alpaca medical issues, the experts do
not agree. You
> will get very different advice from different vets and
virologists. Educate
> yourself and decide what you are comfortable with. There is
research that is
> being done but it needs funding (ARF is sponsoring some
research. Tufts is
> doing some research and I hope there is a lot more out there).
Because of
> testing, I now know the risk to my herd of females who have been
exposed during
> pregnancy and are at risk to produce a PI cria next year because
of their
> exposure. My plan is to isolate those females from other
pregnant females at the
> time of birth and test the crias. Just because a female is
exposed during
> pregnancy and has developed antibodies doesn't mean that the in
utero cria
> will definitely be PI. Today, Dr Purdy stated that they believe
that 1 in 3
> will be PI.
>
> Steve McCarthy
> Spruce Ridge Farm
> Old Chatham, NY
> _www.spruceridgefarm.com_ (http://www.spruceridgefarm.com)
>
>
> In a message dated 12/10/2005 8:17:14 A.M. Eastern Standard
Time,
> mpcpneilp@a... writes:
>
> Steve,
>
> Thanks for the insight. I should have said, "no shows recently,
only
> males shown in the last year and a half, no outside breedings
with
> cria by side, and no pregnant females bought in from other
farms."
>
> I can certainly have alpacas previously exposed to BVD on the
farm,
> but they would be immune and not a source of future infection.
At
> least that is my current understanding.
>
> While I've got you, given that you are now the resident
alpacasite
> expert on this disease perhaps I can draw upon your knowledge
for
> alpacasite? Here are some questions;
>
> 1)How good is the test(s) for BVD?
>
> 2)The vaccine available now (like every other vaccine;-) is
bovine.
> Does it work well in alpacas? How long is it effective? How sure
are
> we of this?
>
> 3)Thoughts vary on how important a pathogen BVD is in alpacas.
Given
> what you have been through, in your opinion what reasonable
> precautions should the prudent breeder take as of 12/05? In
theory,
> any alpaca bred and raised on another farm then bought could be
a
> potential PI. Should we now test 10 year olds? And if they are
> positive to the test, can we tell if they are persistently
infected
> of immune?
>
> Thanks in advance for your further insight. Carol Pfister, if
you are
> out there feel free to jump in.
>
> Neil
> A Paca Fun Farm
> Mt. Airy, Maryland
> Sugarloaf Mountain, Maryland
> www.apacafunfarm.com
>
> --- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, sprucealpacas@a... wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Neil
> > Unless you have tested your herd, I don't think you can make
the
> statement
> > "No BVD here." It is a fallacy that all PI crias are sick. A
PI
> cria born on
> > our farm in September is almost 3 months old now (no longer on
my
> farm but
> > at a horse farm where it can be studied) and she is
the "picture
> of health".
> > Never had diarrhea or a temperature, never lethargic; races
around
> the field
> > like a race horse. It is only because another cria was sick
that
> we tested
> > the herd for BVD and identified this girl as PI. PI cows can
live
> and
> > reproduce for many years.
> >
> > You refer to shows as your exposure risk. There are many ways
to
> be
> > exposed. Probably the best is outside breedings, especially
when a
> cria is at side.
> >
> > As far as vaccines, Dr Evans has been vaccinating herds for
> years. See page
> > 120 of his new book. He first identified BVD in 1988
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve McCarthy
> > Spruce Ridge Farm
> > Old Chatham, NY
> > www.spruceridgefarm.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 12/9/2005 10:14:24 P.M. Eastern Standard
Time,
> > mpcpneilp@a... writes:
> >
> > Since we are on the topic of vaccines, here's a question for
the
> list.
> >
> > I've been asked off-list twice in the last week if I am
giving BVD
> > vaccine. I'm not, at least not yet.
> >
> > Fortunately, since I'm still in the process of building
facilities
> at
> > our new farm I haven't been to a show since MAPACA. No BVD
here! I
> > don't have to worry about BVD again until March, when I hope
to
> have
> > the new farm finished, be moved in, and have the time to show
> again.
> >
> > So, the question is, who out there is using BVD vaccine. What
is
> your
> > experience? Does the vaccine provide any protection in
alpacas?
> Any
> > adverse reactions to the vaccine?
> >
> > Neil
> > A Paca Fun Farm
> > Mt. Airy, Maryland
> > Sugarloaf Mountain, Maryland
> > www.apacafunfarm.com
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of
the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each
message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>
>
>
> List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@a...
> http://aaalpacas.com
>
>
>
> TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
>
>
>
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--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

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Re: [Alpacasite] Re: Anyone giving BVD vaccine?

Time is short here, so I have been whisking through posts and this may have already been posted...so I apologize if I am repeating something already said...

One caution about using vaccine is that after using the vaccine, your animals will probably test positive for BVD. The reason is that the vaccine stimulates your alpaca to produce antibody to the the BVD virus. Tests for BVD check for the presence of the antibody to that virus, and the antibody's existence in your alpaca implies that it has mounted an immune response to the virus and it is concluded that it has "had" the disease. Most of us have had tetanus immunizations and would probably all test positive for the presence of tetanus antibodies.

So before you go and immunize your herd, you might want to ponder the consequences of your herd testing positive for BVD when it may never have been exposed in the first place. If BVD tests become standard for sales, moving across state lines, or stud contracts, a positive test might interfere with all of that. The closer the test is run to the time of immunization, the more positive the test will probably be.

If I immunized an 2 years ago and the antibody level is low, but present nonetheless, how will that be interpreted by the individual considering purchase of that alpaca? I guess if it were I, I would mve on to another animal that was definitely negative.

Perhaps it would make sense to test your alpacas first, and upon receiving negative results for BVD, then immunize against it, and document, document, document?

Laurel

Tim & Laurel Shouvlin
Bluebird Hills Farm CSA & Alpacas
3617 Derr Rd. Springfield, Ohio 45503
www.bluebirdhills.com
bluebirdhills@voyager.net
937-390-6127 or 937-206-3936 (cell)
----- Original Message -----
From: sprucealpacas@aol.com
To: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Alpacasite] Re: Anyone giving BVD vaccine?

I have been at the Northeast Type conference all day where Dr Steve Purdy
did a pre-conference segment on BVD.

There have been a number of emails on the subject today and I will try to
address them here, as well as Neil questions.

I'll start off by saying that there is no clear consensus amongst the
experts on this disease, the appropriate tests and the effectiveness of the tests
in camelids. Most of the research is on cattle. Dr Evans first identified
BVD in llamas in 1988 so this disease has been around for a while. We haven't
heard much about it, I think, because it was not on our radar. I believe the
first (at least one of the first) case identified by Cornell in alpacas
happened at a farm in NY where there was a stillborn. Their vet, who does mostly
bovine, did a necropsy and his bovine necropsy checklist included checking
for BVD.

I would refer you to the Summer 2005 Alpacas Magazine article on BVD for an
excellent overview of this disease and the Winter 2006 issue for a description
of the tests. The 2 PI crias we identified on our farm were diagnosed
through a series of PCR tests and a virus isolation test. Dams of both crias
came to our farm 5 to 6 months pregnant from opposite ends of the country and
appear to have come to our farm with the disease based on the stage of their
pregnancy they came here and the fact that none of our animals are PI (these
animals are boarders). Luck of the Irish I guess that I end up with 2 PI's
born on my farm, but I think it is an indicator that this disease is throughout
the country. We were lucky that one of the 2 PI's was a "slow starter".
When I took him to Tufts Vet Hospital, I requested that they run a BVD test
because I knew of a couple of other farms that have had PI crias this year. If
he hadn't been a bit off, we never would have run the test on him and later on
the rest of our herd and identify the second PI cria. Both crias are now 2
to 3 months old and doing very well (at a horse farm where they are no risk
to other animals).

Dr Evans has been using the vaccine on several herds for years. I cannot
comment on how well it works or how long it is effective, but I have the
greatest respect for Dr Evans and can only assume he would not use it if he didn't
think it was effective. I am not a big proponent of vaccinations, if we can
avoid them. My preference would be to identify those animals who are PI,
preferably through PCR testing at birth. When you run an IgG test, spend $35
and run a PCR test on that cria.

Neil asked if you should test 10 year olds. I think just about everyone
would say no because if they were PI, you would likely have seen problems with
them or their crias, but there are certainly cases in cattle where PI cows
have lived for years and reproduced. If you want to be sure - run tests. A PCR
test, which identifies acute infections (a PI cria will always test
positive), can be run in pools of 10 samples for $35 (Cornell's charge). If the
sample of all 10 is negative, end of story, testing is done and you pay $35. If
the sample of 10 is positive, then they start breaking the sample down into
smaller samples to identify the positive sample and you would be charged based
on the number of tests run. Cornell is very confident that their false
positive rate is low because of their controls. Certainly you would not put down
an animal based on one PCR positive test. If you are concerned about
pregnant females being exposed, run a serum neutralization test (Cornell's charge:
$13). This test identifies antibodies which indicates if the animal has been
exposed to the disease. I would argue that antibodies are good, although I
would like to know if a female has antibodies before she gets pregnant. An
animal that has antibodies has made its ways thru the disease, is not
contagious and is of no risk to your herd (unless she was exposed during the early
stage of her pregnancy, resulting in the possibility of a PI cria which puts
your farm at risk when it is born).

Even though this disease has been a nightmare for my farm, I believe there
should not be hysteria about the disease. It is certainly a problem, but one
that we are now aware of and can address with education and testing. You need
to educate yourself about the disease and assess your level of risk.
Understand that like most alpaca medical issues, the experts do not agree. You
will get very different advice from different vets and virologists. Educate
yourself and decide what you are comfortable with. There is research that is
being done but it needs funding (ARF is sponsoring some research. Tufts is
doing some research and I hope there is a lot more out there). Because of
testing, I now know the risk to my herd of females who have been exposed during
pregnancy and are at risk to produce a PI cria next year because of their
exposure. My plan is to isolate those females from other pregnant females at the
time of birth and test the crias. Just because a female is exposed during
pregnancy and has developed antibodies doesn't mean that the in utero cria
will definitely be PI. Today, Dr Purdy stated that they believe that 1 in 3
will be PI.

Steve McCarthy
Spruce Ridge Farm
Old Chatham, NY
_www.spruceridgefarm.com_ (http://www.spruceridgefarm.com)

In a message dated 12/10/2005 8:17:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mpcpneilp@aol.com writes:

Steve,

Thanks for the insight. I should have said, "no shows recently, only
males shown in the last year and a half, no outside breedings with
cria by side, and no pregnant females bought in from other farms."

I can certainly have alpacas previously exposed to BVD on the farm,
but they would be immune and not a source of future infection. At
least that is my current understanding.

While I've got you, given that you are now the resident alpacasite
expert on this disease perhaps I can draw upon your knowledge for
alpacasite? Here are some questions;

1)How good is the test(s) for BVD?

2)The vaccine available now (like every other vaccine;-) is bovine.
Does it work well in alpacas? How long is it effective? How sure are
we of this?

3)Thoughts vary on how important a pathogen BVD is in alpacas. Given
what you have been through, in your opinion what reasonable
precautions should the prudent breeder take as of 12/05? In theory,
any alpaca bred and raised on another farm then bought could be a
potential PI. Should we now test 10 year olds? And if they are
positive to the test, can we tell if they are persistently infected
of immune?

Thanks in advance for your further insight. Carol Pfister, if you are
out there feel free to jump in.

Neil
A Paca Fun Farm
Mt. Airy, Maryland
Sugarloaf Mountain, Maryland
www.apacafunfarm.com

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, sprucealpacas@a... wrote:
>
>
>
> Neil
> Unless you have tested your herd, I don't think you can make the
statement
> "No BVD here." It is a fallacy that all PI crias are sick. A PI
cria born on
> our farm in September is almost 3 months old now (no longer on my
farm but
> at a horse farm where it can be studied) and she is the "picture
of health".
> Never had diarrhea or a temperature, never lethargic; races around
the field
> like a race horse. It is only because another cria was sick that
we tested
> the herd for BVD and identified this girl as PI. PI cows can live
and
> reproduce for many years.
>
> You refer to shows as your exposure risk. There are many ways to
be
> exposed. Probably the best is outside breedings, especially when a
cria is at side.
>
> As far as vaccines, Dr Evans has been vaccinating herds for
years. See page
> 120 of his new book. He first identified BVD in 1988
>
>
>
> Steve McCarthy
> Spruce Ridge Farm
> Old Chatham, NY
> www.spruceridgefarm.com
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 12/9/2005 10:14:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> mpcpneilp@a... writes:
>
> Since we are on the topic of vaccines, here's a question for the
list.
>
> I've been asked off-list twice in the last week if I am giving BVD
> vaccine. I'm not, at least not yet.
>
> Fortunately, since I'm still in the process of building facilities
at
> our new farm I haven't been to a show since MAPACA. No BVD here! I
> don't have to worry about BVD again until March, when I hope to
have
> the new farm finished, be moved in, and have the time to show
again.
>
> So, the question is, who out there is using BVD vaccine. What is
your
> experience? Does the vaccine provide any protection in alpacas?
Any
> adverse reactions to the vaccine?
>
> Neil
> A Paca Fun Farm
> Mt. Airy, Maryland
> Sugarloaf Mountain, Maryland
> www.apacafunfarm.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.

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[Alpacasite] Re: F&R Guide questionable value

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, Tim Wilson <tpwilson2@a...> wrote:
>
> John,
>
> While you might not be aware since you are not an AOBA member, the
> members were adequately advised that the AOBA Membership guide was
> missing the names of some of the 2005 AOBA members and a
supplemental
> guide would be published.
>

Tim, with all due respect (and as a former AOBA member), every year we
go through this when unsuspecting new members realize that they get
nothing but the "privilege" of spending additional money for their
regular farm membership dues.

If people were, in your words, "adequately advised," then we would not
have to experience this little drama year after year. The fact is, new
members expect that they will benefit directly from AOBA marketing,
and simply put, they don't.

And now there is another person scratching her head and wondering just
what it was she paid for... not to mention all those that are
questioning the decision to charge prospects for the F&RG.

Happens every year about this time, doesn't it...

John Merrell
Gateway Farm Alpacas
http://www.gateway-alpacas.com
Alpaca, a natural elegance...

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Re: [Alpacasite] Re: Anyone giving BVD vaccine?

I have been at the Northeast Type conference all day where Dr Steve Purdy
did a pre-conference segment on BVD.

There have been a number of emails on the subject today and I will try to
address them here, as well as Neil questions.

I'll start off by saying that there is no clear consensus amongst the
experts on this disease, the appropriate tests and the effectiveness of the tests
in camelids. Most of the research is on cattle. Dr Evans first identified
BVD in llamas in 1988 so this disease has been around for a while. We haven't
heard much about it, I think, because it was not on our radar. I believe the
first (at least one of the first) case identified by Cornell in alpacas
happened at a farm in NY where there was a stillborn. Their vet, who does mostly
bovine, did a necropsy and his bovine necropsy checklist included checking
for BVD.

I would refer you to the Summer 2005 Alpacas Magazine article on BVD for an
excellent overview of this disease and the Winter 2006 issue for a description
of the tests. The 2 PI crias we identified on our farm were diagnosed
through a series of PCR tests and a virus isolation test. Dams of both crias
came to our farm 5 to 6 months pregnant from opposite ends of the country and
appear to have come to our farm with the disease based on the stage of their
pregnancy they came here and the fact that none of our animals are PI (these
animals are boarders). Luck of the Irish I guess that I end up with 2 PI's
born on my farm, but I think it is an indicator that this disease is throughout
the country. We were lucky that one of the 2 PI's was a "slow starter".
When I took him to Tufts Vet Hospital, I requested that they run a BVD test
because I knew of a couple of other farms that have had PI crias this year. If
he hadn't been a bit off, we never would have run the test on him and later on
the rest of our herd and identify the second PI cria. Both crias are now 2
to 3 months old and doing very well (at a horse farm where they are no risk
to other animals).

Dr Evans has been using the vaccine on several herds for years. I cannot
comment on how well it works or how long it is effective, but I have the
greatest respect for Dr Evans and can only assume he would not use it if he didn't
think it was effective. I am not a big proponent of vaccinations, if we can
avoid them. My preference would be to identify those animals who are PI,
preferably through PCR testing at birth. When you run an IgG test, spend $35
and run a PCR test on that cria.

Neil asked if you should test 10 year olds. I think just about everyone
would say no because if they were PI, you would likely have seen problems with
them or their crias, but there are certainly cases in cattle where PI cows
have lived for years and reproduced. If you want to be sure - run tests. A PCR
test, which identifies acute infections (a PI cria will always test
positive), can be run in pools of 10 samples for $35 (Cornell's charge). If the
sample of all 10 is negative, end of story, testing is done and you pay $35. If
the sample of 10 is positive, then they start breaking the sample down into
smaller samples to identify the positive sample and you would be charged based
on the number of tests run. Cornell is very confident that their false
positive rate is low because of their controls. Certainly you would not put down
an animal based on one PCR positive test. If you are concerned about
pregnant females being exposed, run a serum neutralization test (Cornell's charge:
$13). This test identifies antibodies which indicates if the animal has been
exposed to the disease. I would argue that antibodies are good, although I
would like to know if a female has antibodies before she gets pregnant. An
animal that has antibodies has made its ways thru the disease, is not
contagious and is of no risk to your herd (unless she was exposed during the early
stage of her pregnancy, resulting in the possibility of a PI cria which puts
your farm at risk when it is born).

Even though this disease has been a nightmare for my farm, I believe there
should not be hysteria about the disease. It is certainly a problem, but one
that we are now aware of and can address with education and testing. You need
to educate yourself about the disease and assess your level of risk.
Understand that like most alpaca medical issues, the experts do not agree. You
will get very different advice from different vets and virologists. Educate
yourself and decide what you are comfortable with. There is research that is
being done but it needs funding (ARF is sponsoring some research. Tufts is
doing some research and I hope there is a lot more out there). Because of
testing, I now know the risk to my herd of females who have been exposed during
pregnancy and are at risk to produce a PI cria next year because of their
exposure. My plan is to isolate those females from other pregnant females at the
time of birth and test the crias. Just because a female is exposed during
pregnancy and has developed antibodies doesn't mean that the in utero cria
will definitely be PI. Today, Dr Purdy stated that they believe that 1 in 3
will be PI.

Steve McCarthy
Spruce Ridge Farm
Old Chatham, NY
_www.spruceridgefarm.com_ (http://www.spruceridgefarm.com)

In a message dated 12/10/2005 8:17:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mpcpneilp@aol.com writes:

Steve,

Thanks for the insight. I should have said, "no shows recently, only
males shown in the last year and a half, no outside breedings with
cria by side, and no pregnant females bought in from other farms."

I can certainly have alpacas previously exposed to BVD on the farm,
but they would be immune and not a source of future infection. At
least that is my current understanding.

While I've got you, given that you are now the resident alpacasite
expert on this disease perhaps I can draw upon your knowledge for
alpacasite? Here are some questions;

1)How good is the test(s) for BVD?

2)The vaccine available now (like every other vaccine;-) is bovine.
Does it work well in alpacas? How long is it effective? How sure are
we of this?

3)Thoughts vary on how important a pathogen BVD is in alpacas. Given
what you have been through, in your opinion what reasonable
precautions should the prudent breeder take as of 12/05? In theory,
any alpaca bred and raised on another farm then bought could be a
potential PI. Should we now test 10 year olds? And if they are
positive to the test, can we tell if they are persistently infected
of immune?

Thanks in advance for your further insight. Carol Pfister, if you are
out there feel free to jump in.

Neil
A Paca Fun Farm
Mt. Airy, Maryland
Sugarloaf Mountain, Maryland
www.apacafunfarm.com

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, sprucealpacas@a... wrote:
>
>
>
> Neil
> Unless you have tested your herd, I don't think you can make the
statement
> "No BVD here." It is a fallacy that all PI crias are sick. A PI
cria born on
> our farm in September is almost 3 months old now (no longer on my
farm but
> at a horse farm where it can be studied) and she is the "picture
of health".
> Never had diarrhea or a temperature, never lethargic; races around
the field
> like a race horse. It is only because another cria was sick that
we tested
> the herd for BVD and identified this girl as PI. PI cows can live
and
> reproduce for many years.
>
> You refer to shows as your exposure risk. There are many ways to
be
> exposed. Probably the best is outside breedings, especially when a
cria is at side.
>
> As far as vaccines, Dr Evans has been vaccinating herds for
years. See page
> 120 of his new book. He first identified BVD in 1988
>
>
>
> Steve McCarthy
> Spruce Ridge Farm
> Old Chatham, NY
> www.spruceridgefarm.com
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 12/9/2005 10:14:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> mpcpneilp@a... writes:
>
> Since we are on the topic of vaccines, here's a question for the
list.
>
> I've been asked off-list twice in the last week if I am giving BVD
> vaccine. I'm not, at least not yet.
>
> Fortunately, since I'm still in the process of building facilities
at
> our new farm I haven't been to a show since MAPACA. No BVD here! I
> don't have to worry about BVD again until March, when I hope to
have
> the new farm finished, be moved in, and have the time to show
again.
>
> So, the question is, who out there is using BVD vaccine. What is
your
> experience? Does the vaccine provide any protection in alpacas?
Any
> adverse reactions to the vaccine?
>
> Neil
> A Paca Fun Farm
> Mt. Airy, Maryland
> Sugarloaf Mountain, Maryland
> www.apacafunfarm.com

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[Alpacasite] Stubborn internal parasites

Hi all,

As I mentioned previously, I feel like we've almost won the war against our
internal parasite problems. We've lost a few battles along the way, and I
have one female at the moment that isn't responding to the prescribed
treatment.

This girl is seven years old, pregnant, with no cria at foot. She is in
good condition with a high body score. She had a fairly high fecal egg
count and we gave her the three-day treatment with Oxfen, a "white" drench
similar to Panacur. This treatment has worked quite effectively on 45
other alpacas in our herd. Three weeks after giving her the three-day
treatment, her FEC is through the roof again. My best guess is that the
parasites are Haemonchus, but I'm not really qualified to say with
certainty. The rest of the herd have almost zero FEC's.

Why didn't the three-day treatment work on her? Her FEC wasn't any higher
than others where the three-day treatment did work. Is it possible that her
internal parasites are resistant and those in the other alpacas are not? I
know that she did not spit out any of the drench.

At this point, she is on day two of a multi-day treatment using the same
oral drench. Here are my questions:

1. Should we just give her a repeat of the three-day treatment or

2. should we give her a five-day treatment or

3. should we give her a three-day white drench treatment plus a Dectomax
injection or

4. should we give her a five-day white drench treatment plus a Dectomax
injection or

5. would you recommend another course of action.

Our vet recommends the first course of action (#1 above). I prefer either
#2 or #3. Ignoring the indicated preferences, what would you do?

Regards,

Chuck Rademacher
Auckland, New Zealand

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Re: [Alpacasite] Re: F&R Guide questionable value

I take your point Tim, however I am wondering how accurately AOBA is recording this information as 2 years ago our farm information was badly messed up and did not reflect what I had put on the membership forms.

Tim Wilson <tpwilson2@adelphia.net> wrote: Ruth,

I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I am still confused. You originally
said it was a supplement to the F&RG. Is this still the case?

As far as using the F&RG and making mailing's based upon the e-mail
address's inside, I reiterate that AOBA is not responsible for these
addresses, they are the responsibility of the folks that are paying to
advertise and they are responsible for the information provided.

Please note that there is a difference between the Farm and Ranch Guide
(listing of farms that pay to advertise in this guide) and the AOBA
Membership guide (which is a listing of all AOBA members). Seems you
might have confused the 2.

Tim Wilson
Sterling Forrest Alpacas
Chagrin Falls, OH

Alpaca Heaven MI wrote:

>Sorry Tim you seem to have misunderstood what I was getting at. It was a supplement which inside said it included those who were left out in error and also new members since October.
>
> But further to this FRG error - what I was sighting was the errors made in the email addresses - when I send out emails using the FRG as a source I had a rate of 10% returned as invalid email addresses. The data base of membership information does not seem to do justice to the members who are listed with errors in their contact information.
>
> Ruth
>
> Tim Wilson <tpwilson2@adelphia.net> wrote:
> Ruth,
>
>Did you receive a supplement to the F&RG or a supplement to the AOBA
>member listing? If you received one to the F&RG I would greatly
>appreciate if you could e-mail me a photo of the cover since I am
>unaware of the existence of this and would like to inquire to the
>marketing committee and to AOBA as to what this is.
>
>FYI - many of you have likely received a very recent copy of a
>supplemental listing of AOBA members (no advertising required to receive
>a copy - this is one of the benefits of being an AOBA member) that was
>designed to list those members that were left out of the 2005 listing of
>AOBA members that is published in the 1st quarter of every year.
>Unfortunately this is one of the many areas that our association
>contractor (AH) failed to deliver on in terms of service and is one of
>the reasons why AOBA decided to leave AH and to form their own office.
>
>If I can make a request - I fully encourage our membership to voice
>their opinions on their likes and dislikes of our membership
>associations leadership and committee decisions and I encourage the
>moderator of this forum to allow wide and open discussions of ALL things
>associated with alpacas even when they involve criticisms of individual
>or committee actions but I do request that those that want to express
>their criticism's please research your issue and try and make sure that
>the information that you present is accurate and pertinent.
>
>Ruth is likely to have a valid gripe if this F&RG supplement missed 10%
>of the paid advertisers. If her complaint is about the supplemental AOBA
>membership then, while she has a legitimate gripe concerning the
>management of our association, she is a bit off the mark in chastising
>the association for leaving out 10% of the paid advertisers when this is
>not likely to have occurred.
>
>As far as the accuracy of any e-mail address in the F&RG it is the
>responsibility of the advertiser to ensure that their e-mail addresses
>are correct. This is not something that AOBA can be responsible for.
>
>Tim Wilson
>Sterling Forrest Alpacas
>Chagrin Falls, OH
>
>
>Alpaca Heaven MI wrote:
>
>
>
>>I imagine it is being sent to everyone as we were not one of the farms left out.
>>
>>Lisa Robin Olsen <AlpacaAtlantic@aol.com> wrote: Ruth,
>>
>>You received a supplement??? I wonder when it was sent out, if it
>>was sent to the entire AOBA membership, or just those that had been
>>left out??? Doesn't sound like it's very useful, but would be nice
>>to have.
>>
>>Warmest Regards,
>>Lisa
>>
>>Alpaca Atlantic of TN: Full-time Ranchers, Full-time Commitment,
>>Full-time Support!
>>Manchester, Tennessee
>>Phone: (931) 728-6945
>>
>>Web Site: http://www.Alpaca-Atlantic.com
>>E-mail: AlpacaAtlantic@aol.com
>>
>>
>>--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, Alpaca Heaven MI <r_laity@y...>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>I was amused that there was a supplement published to the FRG
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>which was supposed to take care of errors and newbies. I had done
>>some emailing from the original FRG and found that there is about a
>>10% error rate with email addresses. Well one would hope that the
>>supplement had the errors licked...... experienced the same 10%
>>error rate again. From a data base and membership point of view
>>this is disappointing - and so far the FRG has not been charged
>>for. How happy are farm and ranch owners when they are paying for
>>information with a 10% error rate???
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Ruth Affleck-Laity
>>> Alpaca Heaven, MI
>>>
>>>alpacastarr <starr@v...> wrote:
>>> That's a fair request - it's hard accepting criticism without
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>good
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>alternative ideas.
>>>
>>>I suggest that while the final recommendation must come the from
>>>committees and the final decision will always rest with the board,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>I
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>don't see why a "pros and cons" discussion of various ideas and
>>>proposals right here on alpacasite would not be a valid source of
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>input.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>I realize that not everyone who signs on to alpacasite is an AOBA
>>>member, but you never know where good ideas or improvements to make
>>>already good ideas great might come from. A/S is a very large
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>group
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>of people who have quite a vested interest in alpacas; if an idea
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>is
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>unpopular (as presented) here there's a pretty good chance it
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>would be
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>unpopular with members too. And, it's cheap to ask for input - no
>>>expensive studies, no travel, no high-priced consultants - on A/S
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>and
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>you can be sure of getting a diverse range of opinions. Just ask,
>>>you'll get more input than you know what to do with probably!
>>>
>>>I wonder how the board/committees get member input now?
>>>
>>>Starr
>>>
>>>
>>>--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, bbeatty656@a... wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I, for one, would be very interested in a dialogue on how to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>accomplish this
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>"sampling" of the membership.
>>>>
>>>>I think most of us know about the need.
>>>>
>>>>No generalities needed.
>>>>
>>>>Instead, how about a few realistic, detailed suggestions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each
>>message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@a...
>>>http://aaalpacas.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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Re: [Alpacasite] Re: F&R Guide questionable value

John,

While you might not be aware since you are not an AOBA member, the
members were adequately advised that the AOBA Membership guide was
missing the names of some of the 2005 AOBA members and a supplemental
guide would be published.

Tim Wilson
Sterling Forrest Alpacas
Chagrin Falls, OH

gatewayfarm wrote:

>--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, Tim Wilson <tpwilson2@a...> wrote:
>
>
>>Ruth,
>>
>>Did you receive a supplement to the F&RG or a supplement to the AOBA
>>member listing? If you received one to the F&RG I would greatly
>>appreciate if you could e-mail me a photo of the cover since I am
>>unaware of the existence of this and would like to inquire to the
>>marketing committee and to AOBA as to what this is.
>>
>>FYI - many of you have likely received a very recent copy of a
>>supplemental listing of AOBA members
>>
>>
>
>It's deja vue all over again!
>
>Looks like once again we have new AOBA members who have not been
>adequately informed of the fadt that they are invisible to the general
>public without spending hundreds of dollars above their published
>dues.
>
>This is another example of how far removed people's expectations of
>the benefits of AOBA membership are from the reality.
>
>So Tim, why don't you take a bit of time to clearly explain to this
>recent AOBA initiate exactly what benefits come with the yearly dues.
>..
>
>John Merrell
>Gateway Farm Alpacas
>http://www.gateway-alpacas.com]
>Alpaca, a natural elegance...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>
>
>
>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
>http://aaalpacas.com
>
>
>
>TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [Alpacasite] Re: F&R Guide questionable value

Ruth,

I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I am still confused. You originally
said it was a supplement to the F&RG. Is this still the case?

As far as using the F&RG and making mailing's based upon the e-mail
address's inside, I reiterate that AOBA is not responsible for these
addresses, they are the responsibility of the folks that are paying to
advertise and they are responsible for the information provided.

Please note that there is a difference between the Farm and Ranch Guide
(listing of farms that pay to advertise in this guide) and the AOBA
Membership guide (which is a listing of all AOBA members). Seems you
might have confused the 2.

Tim Wilson
Sterling Forrest Alpacas
Chagrin Falls, OH

Alpaca Heaven MI wrote:

>Sorry Tim you seem to have misunderstood what I was getting at. It was a supplement which inside said it included those who were left out in error and also new members since October.
>
> But further to this FRG error - what I was sighting was the errors made in the email addresses - when I send out emails using the FRG as a source I had a rate of 10% returned as invalid email addresses. The data base of membership information does not seem to do justice to the members who are listed with errors in their contact information.
>
> Ruth
>
> Tim Wilson <tpwilson2@adelphia.net> wrote:
> Ruth,
>
>Did you receive a supplement to the F&RG or a supplement to the AOBA
>member listing? If you received one to the F&RG I would greatly
>appreciate if you could e-mail me a photo of the cover since I am
>unaware of the existence of this and would like to inquire to the
>marketing committee and to AOBA as to what this is.
>
>FYI - many of you have likely received a very recent copy of a
>supplemental listing of AOBA members (no advertising required to receive
>a copy - this is one of the benefits of being an AOBA member) that was
>designed to list those members that were left out of the 2005 listing of
>AOBA members that is published in the 1st quarter of every year.
>Unfortunately this is one of the many areas that our association
>contractor (AH) failed to deliver on in terms of service and is one of
>the reasons why AOBA decided to leave AH and to form their own office.
>
>If I can make a request - I fully encourage our membership to voice
>their opinions on their likes and dislikes of our membership
>associations leadership and committee decisions and I encourage the
>moderator of this forum to allow wide and open discussions of ALL things
>associated with alpacas even when they involve criticisms of individual
>or committee actions but I do request that those that want to express
>their criticism's please research your issue and try and make sure that
>the information that you present is accurate and pertinent.
>
>Ruth is likely to have a valid gripe if this F&RG supplement missed 10%
>of the paid advertisers. If her complaint is about the supplemental AOBA
>membership then, while she has a legitimate gripe concerning the
>management of our association, she is a bit off the mark in chastising
>the association for leaving out 10% of the paid advertisers when this is
>not likely to have occurred.
>
>As far as the accuracy of any e-mail address in the F&RG it is the
>responsibility of the advertiser to ensure that their e-mail addresses
>are correct. This is not something that AOBA can be responsible for.
>
>Tim Wilson
>Sterling Forrest Alpacas
>Chagrin Falls, OH
>
>
>Alpaca Heaven MI wrote:
>
>
>
>>I imagine it is being sent to everyone as we were not one of the farms left out.
>>
>>Lisa Robin Olsen <AlpacaAtlantic@aol.com> wrote: Ruth,
>>
>>You received a supplement??? I wonder when it was sent out, if it
>>was sent to the entire AOBA membership, or just those that had been
>>left out??? Doesn't sound like it's very useful, but would be nice
>>to have.
>>
>>Warmest Regards,
>>Lisa
>>
>>Alpaca Atlantic of TN: Full-time Ranchers, Full-time Commitment,
>>Full-time Support!
>>Manchester, Tennessee
>>Phone: (931) 728-6945
>>
>>Web Site: http://www.Alpaca-Atlantic.com
>>E-mail: AlpacaAtlantic@aol.com
>>
>>
>>--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, Alpaca Heaven MI <r_laity@y...>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>I was amused that there was a supplement published to the FRG
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>which was supposed to take care of errors and newbies. I had done
>>some emailing from the original FRG and found that there is about a
>>10% error rate with email addresses. Well one would hope that the
>>supplement had the errors licked...... experienced the same 10%
>>error rate again. From a data base and membership point of view
>>this is disappointing - and so far the FRG has not been charged
>>for. How happy are farm and ranch owners when they are paying for
>>information with a 10% error rate???
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Ruth Affleck-Laity
>>> Alpaca Heaven, MI
>>>
>>>alpacastarr <starr@v...> wrote:
>>> That's a fair request - it's hard accepting criticism without
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>good
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>alternative ideas.
>>>
>>>I suggest that while the final recommendation must come the from
>>>committees and the final decision will always rest with the board,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>I
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>don't see why a "pros and cons" discussion of various ideas and
>>>proposals right here on alpacasite would not be a valid source of
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>input.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>I realize that not everyone who signs on to alpacasite is an AOBA
>>>member, but you never know where good ideas or improvements to make
>>>already good ideas great might come from. A/S is a very large
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>group
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>of people who have quite a vested interest in alpacas; if an idea
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>is
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>unpopular (as presented) here there's a pretty good chance it
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>would be
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>unpopular with members too. And, it's cheap to ask for input - no
>>>expensive studies, no travel, no high-priced consultants - on A/S
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>and
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>you can be sure of getting a diverse range of opinions. Just ask,
>>>you'll get more input than you know what to do with probably!
>>>
>>>I wonder how the board/committees get member input now?
>>>
>>>Starr
>>>
>>>
>>>--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, bbeatty656@a... wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I, for one, would be very interested in a dialogue on how to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>accomplish this
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>"sampling" of the membership.
>>>>
>>>>I think most of us know about the need.
>>>>
>>>>No generalities needed.
>>>>
>>>>Instead, how about a few realistic, detailed suggestions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each
>>message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@a...
>>>http://aaalpacas.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> SPONSORED LINKS
>>> Business finance course Business to business finance
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Small business finance Business finance consultant Business
>>finance schools Business finance schools
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>---------------------------------
>>> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit your group "Alpacasite" on the web.
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>>Alpacasite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Service.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>---------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>---------------------------------
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>>>Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
>>>
>>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>>
>>
>>
>>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
>>http://aaalpacas.com
>>
>>
>>
>>TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
>>
>>
>>
>> SPONSORED LINKS
>> Business finance course Business to business finance Small business finance Business finance consultant Business finance schools Business finance schools
>>
>>---------------------------------
>> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
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>>
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>Alpacasite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>Yahoo! Shopping
>>Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
>>
>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>>
>>
>>
>>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
>>http://aaalpacas.com
>>
>>
>>
>>TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>
>
>
>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
>http://aaalpacas.com
>
>
>
>TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> Business finance course Business to business finance Small business finance Business finance consultant Business finance schools Business finance schools
>
>---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "Alpacasite" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Alpacasite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
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> Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>
>
>
>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
>http://aaalpacas.com
>
>
>
>TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
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[Alpacasite] Re: F&R Guide questionable value

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, Tim Wilson <tpwilson2@a...> wrote:
>
> Ruth,
>
> Did you receive a supplement to the F&RG or a supplement to the AOBA
> member listing? If you received one to the F&RG I would greatly
> appreciate if you could e-mail me a photo of the cover since I am
> unaware of the existence of this and would like to inquire to the
> marketing committee and to AOBA as to what this is.
>
> FYI - many of you have likely received a very recent copy of a
> supplemental listing of AOBA members

It's deja vue all over again!

Looks like once again we have new AOBA members who have not been
adequately informed of the fadt that they are invisible to the general
public without spending hundreds of dollars above their published
dues.

This is another example of how far removed people's expectations of
the benefits of AOBA membership are from the reality.

So Tim, why don't you take a bit of time to clearly explain to this
recent AOBA initiate exactly what benefits come with the yearly dues.
..

John Merrell
Gateway Farm Alpacas
http://www.gateway-alpacas.com]
Alpaca, a natural elegance...

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List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
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TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
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<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
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Re: [Alpacasite] Re: F&R Guide questionable value

Sorry Tim you seem to have misunderstood what I was getting at. It was a supplement which inside said it included those who were left out in error and also new members since October.

But further to this FRG error - what I was sighting was the errors made in the email addresses - when I send out emails using the FRG as a source I had a rate of 10% returned as invalid email addresses. The data base of membership information does not seem to do justice to the members who are listed with errors in their contact information.

Ruth

Tim Wilson <tpwilson2@adelphia.net> wrote:
Ruth,

Did you receive a supplement to the F&RG or a supplement to the AOBA
member listing? If you received one to the F&RG I would greatly
appreciate if you could e-mail me a photo of the cover since I am
unaware of the existence of this and would like to inquire to the
marketing committee and to AOBA as to what this is.

FYI - many of you have likely received a very recent copy of a
supplemental listing of AOBA members (no advertising required to receive
a copy - this is one of the benefits of being an AOBA member) that was
designed to list those members that were left out of the 2005 listing of
AOBA members that is published in the 1st quarter of every year.
Unfortunately this is one of the many areas that our association
contractor (AH) failed to deliver on in terms of service and is one of
the reasons why AOBA decided to leave AH and to form their own office.

If I can make a request - I fully encourage our membership to voice
their opinions on their likes and dislikes of our membership
associations leadership and committee decisions and I encourage the
moderator of this forum to allow wide and open discussions of ALL things
associated with alpacas even when they involve criticisms of individual
or committee actions but I do request that those that want to express
their criticism's please research your issue and try and make sure that
the information that you present is accurate and pertinent.

Ruth is likely to have a valid gripe if this F&RG supplement missed 10%
of the paid advertisers. If her complaint is about the supplemental AOBA
membership then, while she has a legitimate gripe concerning the
management of our association, she is a bit off the mark in chastising
the association for leaving out 10% of the paid advertisers when this is
not likely to have occurred.

As far as the accuracy of any e-mail address in the F&RG it is the
responsibility of the advertiser to ensure that their e-mail addresses
are correct. This is not something that AOBA can be responsible for.

Tim Wilson
Sterling Forrest Alpacas
Chagrin Falls, OH

Alpaca Heaven MI wrote:

>I imagine it is being sent to everyone as we were not one of the farms left out.
>
>Lisa Robin Olsen <AlpacaAtlantic@aol.com> wrote: Ruth,
>
>You received a supplement??? I wonder when it was sent out, if it
>was sent to the entire AOBA membership, or just those that had been
>left out??? Doesn't sound like it's very useful, but would be nice
>to have.
>
>Warmest Regards,
>Lisa
>
>Alpaca Atlantic of TN: Full-time Ranchers, Full-time Commitment,
>Full-time Support!
>Manchester, Tennessee
>Phone: (931) 728-6945
>
>Web Site: http://www.Alpaca-Atlantic.com
>E-mail: AlpacaAtlantic@aol.com
>
>
>--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, Alpaca Heaven MI <r_laity@y...>
>wrote:
>
>
>>I was amused that there was a supplement published to the FRG
>>
>>
>which was supposed to take care of errors and newbies. I had done
>some emailing from the original FRG and found that there is about a
>10% error rate with email addresses. Well one would hope that the
>supplement had the errors licked...... experienced the same 10%
>error rate again. From a data base and membership point of view
>this is disappointing - and so far the FRG has not been charged
>for. How happy are farm and ranch owners when they are paying for
>information with a 10% error rate???
>
>
>>
>> Ruth Affleck-Laity
>> Alpaca Heaven, MI
>>
>>alpacastarr <starr@v...> wrote:
>> That's a fair request - it's hard accepting criticism without
>>
>>
>good
>
>
>>alternative ideas.
>>
>>I suggest that while the final recommendation must come the from
>>committees and the final decision will always rest with the board,
>>
>>
>I
>
>
>>don't see why a "pros and cons" discussion of various ideas and
>>proposals right here on alpacasite would not be a valid source of
>>
>>
>input.
>
>
>>I realize that not everyone who signs on to alpacasite is an AOBA
>>member, but you never know where good ideas or improvements to make
>>already good ideas great might come from. A/S is a very large
>>
>>
>group
>
>
>>of people who have quite a vested interest in alpacas; if an idea
>>
>>
>is
>
>
>>unpopular (as presented) here there's a pretty good chance it
>>
>>
>would be
>
>
>>unpopular with members too. And, it's cheap to ask for input - no
>>expensive studies, no travel, no high-priced consultants - on A/S
>>
>>
>and
>
>
>>you can be sure of getting a diverse range of opinions. Just ask,
>>you'll get more input than you know what to do with probably!
>>
>>I wonder how the board/committees get member input now?
>>
>>Starr
>>
>>
>>--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, bbeatty656@a... wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I, for one, would be very interested in a dialogue on how to
>>>
>>>
>>accomplish this
>>
>>
>>>"sampling" of the membership.
>>>
>>>I think most of us know about the need.
>>>
>>>No generalities needed.
>>>
>>>Instead, how about a few realistic, detailed suggestions.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of
>>
>>
>the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each
>message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>
>
>>
>>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@a...
>>http://aaalpacas.com
>>
>>
>>
>>TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit
>>
>>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
>
>
>>
>> SPONSORED LINKS
>> Business finance course Business to business finance
>>
>>
>Small business finance Business finance consultant Business
>finance schools Business finance schools
>
>
>>
>>---------------------------------
>> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>>
>>
>> Visit your group "Alpacasite" on the web.
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> Alpacasite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>>
>>
>Service.
>
>
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>Yahoo! Shopping
>> Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
>>
>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>
>
>
>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
>http://aaalpacas.com
>
>
>
>TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> Business finance course Business to business finance Small business finance Business finance consultant Business finance schools Business finance schools
>
>---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "Alpacasite" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.

List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
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TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join

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