Re: [Alpacasite] Re: Anyone giving BVD vaccine?

In a message dated 12/11/05 3:23:32 PM Central Standard Time,
sprucealpacas@aol.com writes:

2. This one I do not fully understand but this is what I have been told:
A
female with antibodies can in fact have a PI cria. Even though she has
antibodies, I have been told that the new exposure MAY be able to pass thru
the
placenta and affect the cria. This is especially true of a dam who gave
birth
to a PI cria and is pregnant again. To me this implies a vaccine would not

be effective because I would think a vaccine would work the same as an
exposure - both build antibodies.

Another possibility: In bovine there are two strains of BVD with a multiple
substrains within those two. If camelids are susceptable to more that one
strain, exposure to one strain with an antibody response may offer little or
maybe no protection to a subsequent exposure to the other strain(s).


Elden Harms
Token Creek Alpacas LLC
Sun Prairie WI

Looking for superior customer service? Lean on Token Creek Alpacas, you'll
be well supported.

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[Alpacasite] Re: Anyone giving BVD vaccine?

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, sprucealpacas@a... wrote:
> 2. This one I do not fully understand but this is what I have
been told: A
> female with antibodies can in fact have a PI cria. Even though
she has
> antibodies, I have been told that the new exposure MAY be able to
pass thru the
> placenta and affect the cria. This is especially true of a dam
who gave birth
> to a PI cria and is pregnant again. To me this implies a vaccine
would not
> be effective because I would think a vaccine would work the same
as an
> exposure - both build antibodies.

Steve,

Again, many thanks for your experience. It is greatly appreciated.

As for the above comment, I don't understand it either, and it really
doesn't make any sense. The whole point of giving any vaccine is to
produce immunity. Immunity is generally created by a primed immune
system. We know the immune system is primed and ready by the presence
of an antibody titer.

Hence, antibodies (at least at a certain level and with a competent
immune system) equals immunity. To say otherwise turns basic
immunology on its head.

I can accept that a PI cria may have left over antibodies from
colostrum that become overwhelmed by a persistent viral infection. I
can't accept that an adult with a competent immune system can have
both antibodies and still produce a PI cria. It simply makes no sense
to me.

And BTW, thinking along these lines may give us a therapy for curing
those PI cria that you have. Have the researchers at Cornell thought
of the following?.........

Use the attenuated vaccine on male llama blood doners. Repeat the
vaccination on these llamas until you have serum very very high in
antibodies to BVD. Prepare multiple units of hyperimmune plasma from
these llamas.

With hyperimmune plasma now prepared, give your otherwise immune
competent PI cria a plasma transfusion. Wait a week or so and measure
their BVD viral level. Assuming there is still a viral load
measureable, give the PI cria another plasma transfusion. Continue
this therapy until there is no measurable virus, then give more
plasma transfusions (say, 2 more at 1 week intervals) just to make
sure there is no virus left that is in such small amount that it is
immeasurable.

In theory the cria is now free of virus. It will have no defense
against BVD, but in a herd that is free of this disease it will never
be exposed again. The cria will no longer be a carrier and thus would
not have to be euthanized.

Best regards,

Neil
A Paca Fun Farm
Mt. Airy, Maryland
Sugarloaf Mountain, Maryland
www.apacafunfarm.com

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Re: [Alpacasite] Re: Anyone giving BVD vaccine?

A couple of points:
1. a PI cria can also show antibodies in a serum neutralization test. We
had one that did on its first SN test (very low levels) and the assumption is
it got those antibodies thru the dam's milk. On that cria's second SN test,
no antibodies were found. Very confusing to simple minds like mine.

2. This one I do not fully understand but this is what I have been told: A
female with antibodies can in fact have a PI cria. Even though she has
antibodies, I have been told that the new exposure MAY be able to pass thru the
placenta and affect the cria. This is especially true of a dam who gave birth
to a PI cria and is pregnant again. To me this implies a vaccine would not
be effective because I would think a vaccine would work the same as an
exposure - both build antibodies.

3. I agree with Sue about the PCR test is only effective for that day.
However the reason why I think it is a good idea for shows, auctions and
breeding farms to implement a "PCR negative" test requirement is because it would
identify PI crias. You will never be able to eliminate all risks, but with a
PCR negative requirement, you significantly reduce the risk at a show or
auction. PI animals are much more contagious (sheds more of the virus) than a
non-PI animal who gets the disease.


Steve McCarthy
Spruce Ridge Farm
Old Chatham, NY
www.spruceridgefarm.com

In a message dated 12/11/2005 3:07:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
sue@andesdandies.com writes:

I'm echoing Neil on this one with a little follow up. A vaccinated
animal will show positive for antibodies, not the disease itself.
Being positive for antibodies is a GOOD thing when animals are
exposed to groups of other animals...

The PCR test will show if the animal has active current infection of
the virus. A positive PCR on a newborn cria means it's a most likely
a PI. To know for sure, do a follow up PCR in a few weeks to see if
it's still positive, followed by a SN (below) to see if antibodies
are present. Animals who are not currently infected either because
they never have been exposed or they had it once and recovered and
now have antibodies, will test negative to the PCR test. One big
problem is that, just like with an AIDS test in humans, a negative
result is only good FOR THAT DAY - if any change happens after that
test, such as a new cria is born on the farm, an animal goes off the
farm & returns, a new animal comes to the farm, the tested animal
goes to a show or to a breeding farm on a transport trailer with
other animals from other places who were not tested - there may have
been exposure, and a new test might be different.

A Serum Neurtralizing test (SN) screens for presence of antibodies -
meaning the animal was exposed/infected in the PAST and has developed
antibodies. The animal is NOT currently infected, not a risk of
exposure as it stands. PI crias will never test positive on a SN as
they are persistently INFECTED and don't, by definition, develop
antibodies, hense the problem. The ideal would be to have females who
ARE positive for the antibodies, but that they were not exposed
during the risky time of their pregnancy. Was the exposure 2 years
ago, last month, or when? Most critically, was it when she was in
early pregnancy, thereby risking producing a PI cria.

So, SN positive pregnant females should be isolated before delivery
to test their newborn cria to see if it is PI. It may not be. Even if
she was infected during the opportune window, which in cows is 40-120
days (about), don't know about alpacas, she may not have a PI cria.

Negative PCR tests prior to shows are not foolproof, and there is a
misunderstanding that the test only needs to be done once for reasons
stated above.

There will be a lot of fear and misinformation and misunderstanding
as this is all sorted out, and the recommendations may very well
change as research is done on alpacas to determine how the virus
actually behaves in these animals. It is not a new disease, it is
just new to us since we just started to look for it. Obviously, since
it's been around all these years, we just didn't know it, it has not
been terribly insidious - we have not heard of entire breeding herds
being wiped out mysteriously, etc. As with other viruses, not every
animal exposed will contract the disease. Healthy animals in low
stress environments will very likely be able to fend it off like they
do other viruses such as WNV, but some will not.

Sorry, what started out as being a quick added point got a little
more involved, but I think it's info we all need to be familiar and
comfortable with.

best regards,

Sue Zelazny
Andes Dandies, LLC
http://www.andesdandies.com
Middleport, NY

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, "mpcpneilp" <mpcpneilp@a...> wrote:
>
> Laurel,
>
> I have heard this arguement against giving vaccinations, and I
simply
> don't understand it.
>
> If an alpaca tests positive for BVD antibodies IT IS IMMUNE TO BVD!
> An immune alpaca is not a carrier and poses now risk to it's
> penmates. Further, a PI would by definition not be positive for
> antibodies. Given the choice, would you want an alpaca that is
still
> vulnerable, or an alpaca that was immune?
>
> Am I missing something here?
>
> BTW, this is not to suggest that I am in favor of broadly using
> vaccine for BVD at this time. I'm not.
>
> Neil
> A Paca Fun Farm
> Mt. Airy, Maryland
> Sugarloaf Mountain, Maryland
> www.apacafunfarm.com
>
> --- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, "Shouvlins" <bluebirdhills@v...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Time is short here, so I have been whisking through posts and
this
> may have already been posted...so I apologize if I am repeating
> something already said...
> >
> > One caution about using vaccine is that after using the vaccine,
> your animals will probably test positive for BVD. The reason is
that
> the vaccine stimulates your alpaca to produce antibody to the the
BVD
> virus. Tests for BVD check for the presence of the antibody to
that
> virus, and the antibody's existence in your alpaca implies that it
> has mounted an immune response to the virus and it is concluded
that
> it has "had" the disease. Most of us have had tetanus
immunizations
> and would probably all test positive for the presence of tetanus
> antibodies.
> >
> > So before you go and immunize your herd, you might want to ponder
> the consequences of your herd testing positive for BVD when it may
> never have been exposed in the first place. If BVD tests become
> standard for sales, moving across state lines, or stud contracts, a
> positive test might interfere with all of that. The closer the
test
> is run to the time of immunization, the more positive the test will
> probably be.
> >
> > If I immunized an 2 years ago and the antibody level is low, but
> present nonetheless, how will that be interpreted by the individual
> considering purchase of that alpaca? I guess if it were I, I would
> mve on to another animal that was definitely negative.
> >
> > Perhaps it would make sense to test your alpacas first, and upon
> receiving negative results for BVD, then immunize against it, and
> document, document, document?
> >
> > Laurel
> >
> > Tim & Laurel Shouvlin
> > Bluebird Hills Farm CSA & Alpacas
> > 3617 Derr Rd. Springfield, Ohio 45503
> > www.bluebirdhills.com
> > bluebirdhills@v...
> > 937-390-6127 or 937-206-3936 (cell)
> > ----- Original Message -----

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[Alpacasite] Re: Stubborn internal parasites

Hi, OSU used Lavamisole on a girl we took there with suspected
resistance to parasites. Caution must be used with it. They
recommend not using it in the first 90 days of pregnancy (birth
defects) or 60 days before breeding when used with open females.
Dosage must also be very exact based on their weight.

It did get of the tapes and nematodes that panacuring did not eliminate
with her. We'd already done a 3 day at 1.5ml/10 lb. treatment that
was repeated again at 30 days. The two treatments had left her with a
VERY high load and resulting anemia. Must have been a resistance
issue as other on our
farm were not similarly affected. She'd only been here for 4 months,
so we wonder if she'd come in with a problem. Because of this
experience we've changed our protocol with incoming animals.
Automatic 3 day treatment, with a follow up fecal.

Carolyn Marquette
The AlpacaRosa
Hartville, OH

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[Alpacasite] Re: Anyone giving BVD vaccine?

I'm echoing Neil on this one with a little follow up. A vaccinated
animal will show positive for antibodies, not the disease itself.
Being positive for antibodies is a GOOD thing when animals are
exposed to groups of other animals...

The PCR test will show if the animal has active current infection of
the virus. A positive PCR on a newborn cria means it's a most likely
a PI. To know for sure, do a follow up PCR in a few weeks to see if
it's still positive, followed by a SN (below) to see if antibodies
are present. Animals who are not currently infected either because
they never have been exposed or they had it once and recovered and
now have antibodies, will test negative to the PCR test. One big
problem is that, just like with an AIDS test in humans, a negative
result is only good FOR THAT DAY - if any change happens after that
test, such as a new cria is born on the farm, an animal goes off the
farm & returns, a new animal comes to the farm, the tested animal
goes to a show or to a breeding farm on a transport trailer with
other animals from other places who were not tested - there may have
been exposure, and a new test might be different.

A Serum Neurtralizing test (SN) screens for presence of antibodies -
meaning the animal was exposed/infected in the PAST and has developed
antibodies. The animal is NOT currently infected, not a risk of
exposure as it stands. PI crias will never test positive on a SN as
they are persistently INFECTED and don't, by definition, develop
antibodies, hense the problem. The ideal would be to have females who
ARE positive for the antibodies, but that they were not exposed
during the risky time of their pregnancy. Was the exposure 2 years
ago, last month, or when? Most critically, was it when she was in
early pregnancy, thereby risking producing a PI cria.

So, SN positive pregnant females should be isolated before delivery
to test their newborn cria to see if it is PI. It may not be. Even if
she was infected during the opportune window, which in cows is 40-120
days (about), don't know about alpacas, she may not have a PI cria.

Negative PCR tests prior to shows are not foolproof, and there is a
misunderstanding that the test only needs to be done once for reasons
stated above.

There will be a lot of fear and misinformation and misunderstanding
as this is all sorted out, and the recommendations may very well
change as research is done on alpacas to determine how the virus
actually behaves in these animals. It is not a new disease, it is
just new to us since we just started to look for it. Obviously, since
it's been around all these years, we just didn't know it, it has not
been terribly insidious - we have not heard of entire breeding herds
being wiped out mysteriously, etc. As with other viruses, not every
animal exposed will contract the disease. Healthy animals in low
stress environments will very likely be able to fend it off like they
do other viruses such as WNV, but some will not.

Sorry, what started out as being a quick added point got a little
more involved, but I think it's info we all need to be familiar and
comfortable with.

best regards,

Sue Zelazny
Andes Dandies, LLC
http://www.andesdandies.com
Middleport, NY

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, "mpcpneilp" <mpcpneilp@a...> wrote:
>
> Laurel,
>
> I have heard this arguement against giving vaccinations, and I
simply
> don't understand it.
>
> If an alpaca tests positive for BVD antibodies IT IS IMMUNE TO BVD!
> An immune alpaca is not a carrier and poses now risk to it's
> penmates. Further, a PI would by definition not be positive for
> antibodies. Given the choice, would you want an alpaca that is
still
> vulnerable, or an alpaca that was immune?
>
> Am I missing something here?
>
> BTW, this is not to suggest that I am in favor of broadly using
> vaccine for BVD at this time. I'm not.
>
> Neil
> A Paca Fun Farm
> Mt. Airy, Maryland
> Sugarloaf Mountain, Maryland
> www.apacafunfarm.com
>
> --- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, "Shouvlins" <bluebirdhills@v...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Time is short here, so I have been whisking through posts and
this
> may have already been posted...so I apologize if I am repeating
> something already said...
> >
> > One caution about using vaccine is that after using the vaccine,
> your animals will probably test positive for BVD. The reason is
that
> the vaccine stimulates your alpaca to produce antibody to the the
BVD
> virus. Tests for BVD check for the presence of the antibody to
that
> virus, and the antibody's existence in your alpaca implies that it
> has mounted an immune response to the virus and it is concluded
that
> it has "had" the disease. Most of us have had tetanus
immunizations
> and would probably all test positive for the presence of tetanus
> antibodies.
> >
> > So before you go and immunize your herd, you might want to ponder
> the consequences of your herd testing positive for BVD when it may
> never have been exposed in the first place. If BVD tests become
> standard for sales, moving across state lines, or stud contracts, a
> positive test might interfere with all of that. The closer the
test
> is run to the time of immunization, the more positive the test will
> probably be.
> >
> > If I immunized an 2 years ago and the antibody level is low, but
> present nonetheless, how will that be interpreted by the individual
> considering purchase of that alpaca? I guess if it were I, I would
> mve on to another animal that was definitely negative.
> >
> > Perhaps it would make sense to test your alpacas first, and upon
> receiving negative results for BVD, then immunize against it, and
> document, document, document?
> >
> > Laurel
> >
> > Tim & Laurel Shouvlin
> > Bluebird Hills Farm CSA & Alpacas
> > 3617 Derr Rd. Springfield, Ohio 45503
> > www.bluebirdhills.com
> > bluebirdhills@v...
> > 937-390-6127 or 937-206-3936 (cell)
> > ----- Original Message -----

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Re: [Alpacasite] Bleeding after breeding

Michele, you have good eyes! Yes, this is normal and not to be worried about.

Steve H.

At 11:52 AM 12/11/2005, you wrote:
>I just finished breeding one of my girls this morning and immedately
>afterwards, I notices that she was bleeding, slightly, vaginally. She
>has been off this year as far as being bred, so her last crai was born
>one year ago, and last attempted breeding was one year ago. That
>breeding didnt take so she got the year off.
>Anyone have any idea if I should be concerned or does this happen?
>
>Thanks
>Michele Cote
>Summerland Ranch Alpacas
>Boyd, Tx.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of
>the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each
>message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>
>
>
>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
>http://aaalpacas.com
>
>
>
>TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Steve . . . .

TimberLake Farms, Inc.
Tom Cameron, D.V.M. & Steve Hull, Ph.D.
Edmond, Oklahoma

A Full Service Alpaca Farm Including Seminars And Consulting

www.timberlakefarms.net

e-mails: mailto:steve@timberlakefarms.net
mailto:tom@timberlakefarms.net

Farm Telephone: 405 341-8444
Farm Cell Telephone: 405 550-3023
Farm Fax: 405 330-8444

note: opinions made here are not and cannot be construed to be
specific veterinary advice, diagnosis or treatments. Both Tom and
Steve strongly suggest always checking with your own veterinarian.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Alpacasite] Re: Learn to do your own weather forecast

Thanks Gary, just getting back from the trip. All was well on the
weather front by the time we got there. The Type Conference was a
great success I think BTW!

Best regards,

Sue Zelazny
Andes Dandies, LLC
http://www.andesdandies.com
Middleport, NY

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, "gepp1" <alpacas@g...> wrote:
>
> Hi Sue,
>
> Go to the home page of NOAA's weather division.
>
> http://www.weather.gov/
>
> Click on the map for your location and it should take you to the
> home page of the weather bureau near you.
>
> Once you have the local home page bookmark it!
>
> I find the "Satellite Image" especially the "Water Vapor" loops the
> most useful. If you get good at navigating your local site, you can
> pretty much predict the weather over short timeframes (like 2 to 48
> hours) with so much precision it's scary. It's fun yelling at the
TV
> weather people when you know they're wrong.
>
> The other area that I find very useful is the "Radar Imagery" loops.
>
> It takes some practice to interpret the all images but once you
know
> what they mean you can predict the start and end of rain or snow
> storm to within minutes. You need to check whatever page you
finally
> select as your favorite multiple time a day, especially on days
when
> the weather is changing rapidly to build up experience on how to
> interpret the images. Be patient, its worth it!
>
> BTW – The specific link for you Sue, is;
>
> http://www.erh.noaa.gov/er/aly/
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Greystone Manor
> Gary Epp
>
>
>
>
> --- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, "andesdandies" <sue@a...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi siters,
> >
> > Just checking to see if folks are going to show up at the Type
> > Conference this weekend. The weather forecast has taken a turn
for
> > the worst. I'm planning on heading out tomorrow afternoon with
> > intentions to also deliver an alpaca on the way to Springfield -
> but
> > if the snow is bad, I'll turn around & go back home....
> >
> > Those of you near Springfield, if you'd let us know what the real
> > story is during the day tomorrow that would be great. It's so
hard
> to
> > get accurate forecast info. I for one am hoping the worst will be
> > early Friday & it will get cleared out as the day goes on...
> >
> > Hope to see many of you Saturday
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Sue Zelazny
> > Andes Dandies, LLC
> > http://www.andesdandies.com
> > Middleport, NY
> >
>

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[Alpacasite] Stubborn parasites and crusty mouth

Steve,

Thanks for your comments on both of these subjects.

I should have mentioned that we DID give double the sheep dose of Oxfen in
all cases. So, I think we will resort to the five-day treatment.

Regarding the cria with lesions as you suggest. We'll wean him today and
also have a look at his mother's udder.

Regards,

Chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Steve Hull, TimberLake Farms. Inc
Sent: Monday, 12 December 2005 2:15 a.m.
To: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Alpacasite] Stubborn internal parasites

Chuck, the dose we use here in the states for fenbendazole - very
similar to oxfendazole (Oxfen) - is 1 ml/10 lbs. I just went out on
the web and there it was recommended to use Oxfen at one ml per 10 kg
(22 lbs) when used in sheep cattle and goats (in your country).

I would increase the Oxfen dose to one ml per ten lbs for three
consecutive days. This is about a doubling of the dose. Then
retest the fecals and make sure you are looking at what you think you
are seeing on the FEC. If you are still positive for FECs and they
are parasites susceptive to Oxfen, then go five consecutive days.

The reason I am recommending the higher dose, but for the standard
interval, is that drugs in this class are very safe. Try to kill the
parasites quickly with a high safe dose, rather than a long period of
treatment at a lower dose. This minimizes your time (3 vs 5 days)
and you can tell you vet that you "followed" his recommendation (but
with a higher dose) and I think you will get this beast. If you
still have a positive, then go for 5 days. Dr. Norm Evans has
mentioned that for some resistant parasites, that sometimes doses of
this compound need to be at even higher doses than the 1 ml/10 lbs.

I would rather go this route first rather than by combing two anti
parasitics at the same time. That can be down the road if need be.

As for crusty mouth, this is very often a viral disease and is often
effectively treated with a mild surface compound containing
chlorhexidine (Nolvasan ointment). Some of the cutaneous oral viral
lesions can be very contagious (think sheep "orf"), so be careful to
wash your hands carefully after treating. I have also found that
putting a bit of Nolvasan ointment on the dam's udder helps a lot
too. She may have a few crusty lesions there. It may be that she
gave it to the cria - or vice versa.

I wash off the cria's mouth with warm water/soft warm towel first and
gently remove the crusty bits (twice a day). Then just a thin film
of the ointment rubbed on the affected area worked well. If I
recall, I did this for about a week and it completely cleared up.

The Fowler book ("blue book") has some good further information on
these lip lesions.

Steve H.

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[Alpacasite] Bleeding after breeding

I just finished breeding one of my girls this morning and immedately
afterwards, I notices that she was bleeding, slightly, vaginally. She
has been off this year as far as being bred, so her last crai was born
one year ago, and last attempted breeding was one year ago. That
breeding didnt take so she got the year off.
Anyone have any idea if I should be concerned or does this happen?

Thanks
Michele Cote
Summerland Ranch Alpacas
Boyd, Tx.

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RE: [Alpacasite] Transfaunation?

Might want to have a full blood panel done including for Mycoplasma
haemolamae [was EPE]. Also you may have inadvertently hit on a cause when
you mentioned his 'tooth' Check his upper plate to see if incisors are
cutting into it. We had molars filed down on one of our boys, and within a
week after that his incisors had started cutting into his upper plate making
it painful to chew [the molar points being filed down had changed his bite
pattern]. As soon as we floated the front teeth he was back to chewing.
Also you can have x rays taken of his jaw to see if there is any tooth root
abscesses or other abscesses in the actual jaw bone causing pain and
discomfort that may be causing him to not chew or eat.

Don't laugh, but if he's low key enough, 'smelling his breath' wouldn't hurt
either. It shouldn't have any kind of noticeably bad smell. Don't know how
else to explain that one.

In the winter months, the absence of forage might result in eating toxic or
mildly toxic plants in a pasture that would otherwise be ignored, moldy
fallen leaves, etc. Also most parasites are only detectable when eggs are
being shed, so a test today for parasites could easily be negative and the
test tomorrow show positive. Might very well be worth several days of
testing.

Check with some of the local dairies. They should be able to tell you where
to find a slaughterhouse, then check with a vet on the process. There is a
window of time keeping the rumen fresh.

Not to highlight the obvious, but tracking the cause of the problem will be
long term more important in my mind while you are attempting to treat the
symptoms.

Gary Kaufman

Roads End Farm, Olympia WA

<http://www.roadsendllamas.com> www.roadsendllamas.com

Home of the Northwest's Best Kept Secret

<http://www.roadsendllamas.com/Index_files/page0003.html> ROYCE

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Re: [Alpacasite] Transfaunation?

In a message dated 12/11/2005 8:30:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,
kcalpaca@premier1.net writes:
Hello Alice,

Have you treated for coccidia to see if you get improvement?

I collect sputum by wiring a quart size dairy container snugly to a
halter and then very slowly put it on the donor.
Then, bring in the stud to check behavior.
The sputum needs to be kept warm for viablility of as much of the
goodies in it as possible, so use it immediately.
Mix it with some tepid (100 F) water and use an oral dosing syringe to
administer it to the recipient.

You might consider an illness that requires anitbiotic treatment such as
Leptospirosis as a possibility.

>>>>>>>>>>>
Hi Laura, Thanks for you help. His temp was 100.1 in the evening and 99.1
this morning, but it was quite cold this morning. I am thinking of making a
slurry of rabbit pellets to get some roughage into him and I like you rumen juice
idea. I am giving him MSE probiotics and Peptobismal for the diarrhea. I
checked his fecal for coccidia and saw nothing because that was my guess. I was
wondering if he could have eaten too many oak leaves even though he has pasture,
at least some, and hay free choice at all times. He is out in the sun right now
pretending to graze. He doesn't seem to be chewing and swallowing, just
walking a long nibbling a little. HOpefully the vet will get back to me soon.
Thanks, Alice

Fred and Alice Brown
Forever Precious Alpacas
458 Main Road
Vineland, NJ 08360
856-697-8127
http://www.alpacanation.com/foreverprecious.asp
http://www.small-alpaca-farms.com
http://www.AlpacaHeritage.com
Home of Peruvian Virtual Vicuna
The ultimate vicuna patterned male.

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Re: [Alpacasite] Re: F&R Guide questionable value

I agree there has to be a better way and maybe the ARI method of updating ranch profiles makes the improvement.

Tim Wilson <tpwilson2@adelphia.net> wrote: Ruth,

You make a point about concerns about the accuracy of the data
maintained by AH. This problem was one of many which I believe the AOBA
BOD considered when deciding to make the move to their own office.

Something else to consider, once this directory is published it can
become outdated since many people frequently change their e-mail
address. This could count for some of your 10% error rate (not all of it
but probably some of it). We need to remind each other to keep the AOBA
office up to date if you make changes to your ranch profile. I suspect
this is one of the features that may be part of the new and updated AOBA
website (ability to change your ranch profile like you can on the ARI
website).

Tim Wilson
Sterling Forrest Alpacas
Chagrin Falls, OH

Alpaca Heaven MI wrote:

>I take your point Tim, however I am wondering how accurately AOBA is recording this information as 2 years ago our farm information was badly messed up and did not reflect what I had put on the membership forms.
>
>Tim Wilson <tpwilson2@adelphia.net> wrote: Ruth,
>
>I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I am still confused. You originally
>said it was a supplement to the F&RG. Is this still the case?
>
>As far as using the F&RG and making mailing's based upon the e-mail
>address's inside, I reiterate that AOBA is not responsible for these
>addresses, they are the responsibility of the folks that are paying to
>advertise and they are responsible for the information provided.
>
>Please note that there is a difference between the Farm and Ranch Guide
>(listing of farms that pay to advertise in this guide) and the AOBA
>Membership guide (which is a listing of all AOBA members). Seems you
>might have confused the 2.
>
>Tim Wilson
>Sterling Forrest Alpacas
>Chagrin Falls, OH
>
>Alpaca Heaven MI wrote:
>
>
>
>>Sorry Tim you seem to have misunderstood what I was getting at. It was a supplement which inside said it included those who were left out in error and also new members since October.
>>
>> But further to this FRG error - what I was sighting was the errors made in the email addresses - when I send out emails using the FRG as a source I had a rate of 10% returned as invalid email addresses. The data base of membership information does not seem to do justice to the members who are listed with errors in their contact information.
>>
>> Ruth
>>
>> Tim Wilson <tpwilson2@adelphia.net> wrote:
>> Ruth,
>>
>>Did you receive a supplement to the F&RG or a supplement to the AOBA
>>member listing? If you received one to the F&RG I would greatly
>>appreciate if you could e-mail me a photo of the cover since I am
>>unaware of the existence of this and would like to inquire to the
>>marketing committee and to AOBA as to what this is.
>>
>>FYI - many of you have likely received a very recent copy of a
>>supplemental listing of AOBA members (no advertising required to receive
>>a copy - this is one of the benefits of being an AOBA member) that was
>>designed to list those members that were left out of the 2005 listing of
>>AOBA members that is published in the 1st quarter of every year.
>>Unfortunately this is one of the many areas that our association
>>contractor (AH) failed to deliver on in terms of service and is one of
>>the reasons why AOBA decided to leave AH and to form their own office.
>>
>>If I can make a request - I fully encourage our membership to voice
>>their opinions on their likes and dislikes of our membership
>>associations leadership and committee decisions and I encourage the
>>moderator of this forum to allow wide and open discussions of ALL things
>>associated with alpacas even when they involve criticisms of individual
>>or committee actions but I do request that those that want to express
>>their criticism's please research your issue and try and make sure that
>>the information that you present is accurate and pertinent.
>>
>>Ruth is likely to have a valid gripe if this F&RG supplement missed 10%
>>of the paid advertisers. If her complaint is about the supplemental AOBA
>>membership then, while she has a legitimate gripe concerning the
>>management of our association, she is a bit off the mark in chastising
>>the association for leaving out 10% of the paid advertisers when this is
>>not likely to have occurred.
>>
>>As far as the accuracy of any e-mail address in the F&RG it is the
>>responsibility of the advertiser to ensure that their e-mail addresses
>>are correct. This is not something that AOBA can be responsible for.
>>
>>Tim Wilson
>>Sterling Forrest Alpacas
>>Chagrin Falls, OH
>>
>>
>>Alpaca Heaven MI wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>I imagine it is being sent to everyone as we were not one of the farms left out.
>>>
>>>Lisa Robin Olsen <AlpacaAtlantic@aol.com> wrote: Ruth,
>>>
>>>You received a supplement??? I wonder when it was sent out, if it
>>>was sent to the entire AOBA membership, or just those that had been
>>>left out??? Doesn't sound like it's very useful, but would be nice
>>>to have.
>>>
>>>Warmest Regards,
>>>Lisa
>>>
>>>Alpaca Atlantic of TN: Full-time Ranchers, Full-time Commitment,
>>>Full-time Support!
>>>Manchester, Tennessee
>>>Phone: (931) 728-6945
>>>
>>>Web Site: http://www.Alpaca-Atlantic.com
>>>E-mail: AlpacaAtlantic@aol.com
>>>
>>>
>>>--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, Alpaca Heaven MI <r_laity@y...>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I was amused that there was a supplement published to the FRG
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>which was supposed to take care of errors and newbies. I had done
>>>some emailing from the original FRG and found that there is about a
>>>10% error rate with email addresses. Well one would hope that the
>>>supplement had the errors licked...... experienced the same 10%
>>>error rate again. From a data base and membership point of view
>>>this is disappointing - and so far the FRG has not been charged
>>>for. How happy are farm and ranch owners when they are paying for
>>>information with a 10% error rate???
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Ruth Affleck-Laity
>>>>Alpaca Heaven, MI
>>>>
>>>>alpacastarr <starr@v...> wrote:
>>>>That's a fair request - it's hard accepting criticism without
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>good
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>alternative ideas.
>>>>
>>>>I suggest that while the final recommendation must come the from
>>>>committees and the final decision will always rest with the board,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>I
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>don't see why a "pros and cons" discussion of various ideas and
>>>>proposals right here on alpacasite would not be a valid source of
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>input.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I realize that not everyone who signs on to alpacasite is an AOBA
>>>>member, but you never know where good ideas or improvements to make
>>>>already good ideas great might come from. A/S is a very large
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>group
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>of people who have quite a vested interest in alpacas; if an idea
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>is
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>unpopular (as presented) here there's a pretty good chance it
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>would be
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>unpopular with members too. And, it's cheap to ask for input - no
>>>>expensive studies, no travel, no high-priced consultants - on A/S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>you can be sure of getting a diverse range of opinions. Just ask,
>>>>you'll get more input than you know what to do with probably!
>>>>
>>>>I wonder how the board/committees get member input now?
>>>>
>>>>Starr
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, bbeatty656@a... wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I, for one, would be very interested in a dialogue on how to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>accomplish this
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"sampling" of the membership.
>>>>>
>>>>>I think most of us know about the need.
>>>>>
>>>>>No generalities needed.
>>>>>
>>>>>Instead, how about a few realistic, detailed suggestions.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@a...
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Re: [Alpacasite] Re: F&R Guide questionable value

Ruth,

You make a point about concerns about the accuracy of the data
maintained by AH. This problem was one of many which I believe the AOBA
BOD considered when deciding to make the move to their own office.

Something else to consider, once this directory is published it can
become outdated since many people frequently change their e-mail
address. This could count for some of your 10% error rate (not all of it
but probably some of it). We need to remind each other to keep the AOBA
office up to date if you make changes to your ranch profile. I suspect
this is one of the features that may be part of the new and updated AOBA
website (ability to change your ranch profile like you can on the ARI
website).

Tim Wilson
Sterling Forrest Alpacas
Chagrin Falls, OH

Alpaca Heaven MI wrote:

>I take your point Tim, however I am wondering how accurately AOBA is recording this information as 2 years ago our farm information was badly messed up and did not reflect what I had put on the membership forms.
>
>Tim Wilson <tpwilson2@adelphia.net> wrote: Ruth,
>
>I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I am still confused. You originally
>said it was a supplement to the F&RG. Is this still the case?
>
>As far as using the F&RG and making mailing's based upon the e-mail
>address's inside, I reiterate that AOBA is not responsible for these
>addresses, they are the responsibility of the folks that are paying to
>advertise and they are responsible for the information provided.
>
>Please note that there is a difference between the Farm and Ranch Guide
>(listing of farms that pay to advertise in this guide) and the AOBA
>Membership guide (which is a listing of all AOBA members). Seems you
>might have confused the 2.
>
>Tim Wilson
>Sterling Forrest Alpacas
>Chagrin Falls, OH
>
>Alpaca Heaven MI wrote:
>
>
>
>>Sorry Tim you seem to have misunderstood what I was getting at. It was a supplement which inside said it included those who were left out in error and also new members since October.
>>
>> But further to this FRG error - what I was sighting was the errors made in the email addresses - when I send out emails using the FRG as a source I had a rate of 10% returned as invalid email addresses. The data base of membership information does not seem to do justice to the members who are listed with errors in their contact information.
>>
>> Ruth
>>
>> Tim Wilson <tpwilson2@adelphia.net> wrote:
>> Ruth,
>>
>>Did you receive a supplement to the F&RG or a supplement to the AOBA
>>member listing? If you received one to the F&RG I would greatly
>>appreciate if you could e-mail me a photo of the cover since I am
>>unaware of the existence of this and would like to inquire to the
>>marketing committee and to AOBA as to what this is.
>>
>>FYI - many of you have likely received a very recent copy of a
>>supplemental listing of AOBA members (no advertising required to receive
>>a copy - this is one of the benefits of being an AOBA member) that was
>>designed to list those members that were left out of the 2005 listing of
>>AOBA members that is published in the 1st quarter of every year.
>>Unfortunately this is one of the many areas that our association
>>contractor (AH) failed to deliver on in terms of service and is one of
>>the reasons why AOBA decided to leave AH and to form their own office.
>>
>>If I can make a request - I fully encourage our membership to voice
>>their opinions on their likes and dislikes of our membership
>>associations leadership and committee decisions and I encourage the
>>moderator of this forum to allow wide and open discussions of ALL things
>>associated with alpacas even when they involve criticisms of individual
>>or committee actions but I do request that those that want to express
>>their criticism's please research your issue and try and make sure that
>>the information that you present is accurate and pertinent.
>>
>>Ruth is likely to have a valid gripe if this F&RG supplement missed 10%
>>of the paid advertisers. If her complaint is about the supplemental AOBA
>>membership then, while she has a legitimate gripe concerning the
>>management of our association, she is a bit off the mark in chastising
>>the association for leaving out 10% of the paid advertisers when this is
>>not likely to have occurred.
>>
>>As far as the accuracy of any e-mail address in the F&RG it is the
>>responsibility of the advertiser to ensure that their e-mail addresses
>>are correct. This is not something that AOBA can be responsible for.
>>
>>Tim Wilson
>>Sterling Forrest Alpacas
>>Chagrin Falls, OH
>>
>>
>>Alpaca Heaven MI wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>I imagine it is being sent to everyone as we were not one of the farms left out.
>>>
>>>Lisa Robin Olsen <AlpacaAtlantic@aol.com> wrote: Ruth,
>>>
>>>You received a supplement??? I wonder when it was sent out, if it
>>>was sent to the entire AOBA membership, or just those that had been
>>>left out??? Doesn't sound like it's very useful, but would be nice
>>>to have.
>>>
>>>Warmest Regards,
>>>Lisa
>>>
>>>Alpaca Atlantic of TN: Full-time Ranchers, Full-time Commitment,
>>>Full-time Support!
>>>Manchester, Tennessee
>>>Phone: (931) 728-6945
>>>
>>>Web Site: http://www.Alpaca-Atlantic.com
>>>E-mail: AlpacaAtlantic@aol.com
>>>
>>>
>>>--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, Alpaca Heaven MI <r_laity@y...>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I was amused that there was a supplement published to the FRG
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>which was supposed to take care of errors and newbies. I had done
>>>some emailing from the original FRG and found that there is about a
>>>10% error rate with email addresses. Well one would hope that the
>>>supplement had the errors licked...... experienced the same 10%
>>>error rate again. From a data base and membership point of view
>>>this is disappointing - and so far the FRG has not been charged
>>>for. How happy are farm and ranch owners when they are paying for
>>>information with a 10% error rate???
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Ruth Affleck-Laity
>>>>Alpaca Heaven, MI
>>>>
>>>>alpacastarr <starr@v...> wrote:
>>>>That's a fair request - it's hard accepting criticism without
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>good
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>alternative ideas.
>>>>
>>>>I suggest that while the final recommendation must come the from
>>>>committees and the final decision will always rest with the board,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>I
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>don't see why a "pros and cons" discussion of various ideas and
>>>>proposals right here on alpacasite would not be a valid source of
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>input.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I realize that not everyone who signs on to alpacasite is an AOBA
>>>>member, but you never know where good ideas or improvements to make
>>>>already good ideas great might come from. A/S is a very large
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>group
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>of people who have quite a vested interest in alpacas; if an idea
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>is
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>unpopular (as presented) here there's a pretty good chance it
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>would be
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>unpopular with members too. And, it's cheap to ask for input - no
>>>>expensive studies, no travel, no high-priced consultants - on A/S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>you can be sure of getting a diverse range of opinions. Just ask,
>>>>you'll get more input than you know what to do with probably!
>>>>
>>>>I wonder how the board/committees get member input now?
>>>>
>>>>Starr
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, bbeatty656@a... wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I, for one, would be very interested in a dialogue on how to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>accomplish this
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"sampling" of the membership.
>>>>>
>>>>>I think most of us know about the need.
>>>>>
>>>>>No generalities needed.
>>>>>
>>>>>Instead, how about a few realistic, detailed suggestions.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each
>>>message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@a...
>>>>http://aaalpacas.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
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>>Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
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>>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
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[Alpacasite] Re: Stubborn internal parasites

HA!

I just read Steve's recommendations after my last post went up.
Steve's recommendations are completely different, and just as valid
as mine. I greatly suspect if Dr Ruthanne has simultaneously posted
recommendations they would be equally valid and just as different.

This happens all the time (in human practice we call it "The Art of
Medicine").

What is important here is to pick one set of recommendations and
follow it through, measuring your results all the while.

Again, best of luck,

Neil
A Paca Fun Farm
Mt. Airy, Maryland
Sugarloaf Mountain, Maryland
www.apacafunfarm.com

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, "mpcpneilp" <mpcpneilp@a...> wrote:
>
> Chuck,
>
> This is the kind of question that a primary care physician faces
> virtually every week ;-)
>
> The simple answer is that given the treatment is benign and the
> animal is otherwise healthy, you can do any of your options and
> observe the results. You don't know what you are dealing with and
you
> don't know for sure if the alpaca got a full dose of treatment the
> first time (could have gotten an inactivated or inadequate dose).
>
> Ideally, before proceding I would prefer to have better information
> about the infection. If I knew with more certainty what the
parasite
> was I would have a better idea how to treat it, resistant or not.
>
> Trudy's point about about a compromised immune system is very
valid.
> Checking a CBC, protein level, and even immunoglobulins could help
to
> determine if this were a problem.
>
> Finally, if my veterinary collegues are anything like the
infectious
> disease specialists I consult, if you ask 5 different docs your
> question you will likely get 5 different answer (with good reasons
> for each different solution!).
>
> My personal take on it is this, if you can't easily get more
> information, if the female is otherwise healthy, and if the various
> treatments are benign.........I would go with the "throw the
kitchen
> sink at her" method of treatment, which would be option 5 plus a
> third therapy if it were available. My reasoning would be that with
> triple therapy, full course treatment you are very unlikely to
> produce a new resistant strain (the worm would have to develop or
> maintain resistance to 3 different treatments at the same time).
> Further, this option is probably cheaper than sending slides off to
a
> university for further identification or expensive labwork. Plus,
if
> you do have a resistant worm in this particular female, you have
> removed a potential source of a nasty worm from the herd more
quickly
> than if you waited for more information. See what your vet thinks
> about that option.
>
> My 2 cents and the reason why.........
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Neil
> A Paca Fun Farm
> Mt. Airy, Maryland
> Sugarloaf Mountain, Maryland
> www.apacafunfarm.com
>
> --- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Rademacher"
> <chuck_rademacher@x> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > As I mentioned previously, I feel like we've almost won the war
> against our
> > internal parasite problems. We've lost a few battles along the
> way, and I
> > have one female at the moment that isn't responding to the
> prescribed
> > treatment.
> >
> > This girl is seven years old, pregnant, with no cria at foot.
She
> is in
> > good condition with a high body score. She had a fairly high
fecal
> egg
> > count and we gave her the three-day treatment with Oxfen,
a "white"
> drench
> > similar to Panacur. This treatment has worked quite effectively
> on 45
> > other alpacas in our herd. Three weeks after giving her the
three-
> day
> > treatment, her FEC is through the roof again. My best guess is
> that the
> > parasites are Haemonchus, but I'm not really qualified to say with
> > certainty. The rest of the herd have almost zero FEC's.
> >
> > Why didn't the three-day treatment work on her? Her FEC wasn't
any
> higher
> > than others where the three-day treatment did work. Is it
possible
> that her
> > internal parasites are resistant and those in the other alpacas
are
> not? I
> > know that she did not spit out any of the drench.
> >
> > At this point, she is on day two of a multi-day treatment using
the
> same
> > oral drench. Here are my questions:
> >
> > 1. Should we just give her a repeat of the three-day treatment or
> >
> > 2. should we give her a five-day treatment or
> >
> > 3. should we give her a three-day white drench treatment plus a
> Dectomax
> > injection or
> >
> > 4. should we give her a five-day white drench treatment plus a
> Dectomax
> > injection or
> >
> > 5. would you recommend another course of action.
> >
> > Our vet recommends the first course of action (#1 above). I
prefer
> either
> > #2 or #3. Ignoring the indicated preferences, what would you do?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Chuck Rademacher
> > Auckland, New Zealand
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

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