alpacas: 08/01/08

Fwd: [AlpacaTalk] Marketing 101

Oops! I forgot to sign my post!
Heather

Heather Zeleny
White Lotus Alpacas
(formerly West Wind Alpacas)
Eugene, OR

541.895.0964

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece
http://www.alpacanation.com/whitelotus.asp
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AlpacaTalk/join

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Heather Zeleny <alpacatalk@westwindalpacas.com>
> Date: August 1, 2008 11:18:08 PM PDT
> To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AlpacaTalk] Marketing 101
> Reply-To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
>
> So after writing an off-list reply to someone regarding the stinky pile
> I stepped in recently, I finally figured out what my problem was.
> It'll
> take awhile to flesh it all out for everyone, so bear with me.
>
> So, say down on their luck Alpaca Breeder A has some alpacas to sell.
> Entrepreneur/Broker/General Good Guy Just Helping Out has a great deal
> to help out Breeder A. Broker will take Breeder A's alpaca/s on
> consignment. He will market them, keep them bred, feed and perform all
> necessary care for them on his farm. What is Breeder A's bottom dollar
> for alpaca X? Ok, we've decided that. So these alpacas actually have a
> greater market value, probably. The example put to me was 50%, or
> more,
> difference in those figures. So Broker works and works, breeds the
> open
> dam to his sire... includes another free breed after delivery of the
> cria.
>
> Finally a buyer comes along. Let's say he/she buys Alpaca X. Broker
> has
> invested so much time and effort, and services of his sire/s, that his
> final profit is next to nothing. But actually, he has seen 1/3 of the
> sales price of these animals go into his own pocket. Let's use easy
> round numbers, that were offered as an example. Breeder A wants no
> less
> than $10k for Alpaca X. Market value may be easily $15k. Broker
> markets
> Alpaca X for $15k. Makes sure she's bred (to his sire). He controls
> care and feeding, vet care, etc. Say we finally get a buyer, who can't
> afford more than $13.5k. I'm not sure how the contract reads between
> Breeder and Broker, but say Breeder actually receives the $10k they
> required. Broker then receives $3.5k for his efforts. Well that looks
> like a 35% commission to me. If he'd gotten he full $15k price, that
> would have been a realization of a 50% commission.
>
> Oh, he's given free breedings to his personally owned sire! Which he
> claims are worth $2k each! So now he's actually lost money because he
> gave away for free those two breedings to his sire. Not to mention all
> the time and effort of marketing this female alpaca. But he did get a
> check for $3500, no? I can claim that breedings to my own multi-blue
> ribbon winning son of a famous rose grey sire are worth a bajillion
> dollars, but until I get that for one breeding, it's not necessarily
> true. In fact, I'll happily take $500 per breed for each of my boys
> right now. Seriously.
>
> Gentle readers, marketing is part of the business. Farm visits and
> mentoring are part of the business. Free breedings are part of the
> business. Helping site barns and fencelines are part of the business.
> You don't lose profit my providing those services, you hopefully gain
> clients and partnerships. Hand-holding and answering frantic calls are
> part of the business. You never lose on good service.
>
> Some years ago, I sold a dam for a certain price. I included a son of
> hers (18µ at 2 years and incredibly silky fiber) for free as a deal
> sweetener. We also included a free breedback for the dam. Did I lose
> money? Maybe, actually. :) But I have a client who still calls and
> recommends us to other breeders, everyone she knows. And how much work
> would that boy have gotten on my farm? Not much. Plus I would have had
> to feed him and scoop his poop for all these years. Did that free
> breedback cost us anything? Not really. So we've saved money actually,
> and lots of poop scooping. :) Plus I did reserve breedings to the boy.
> So everyone's happy.
>
> So that's my take on this issue. I don't want to upset anyone, but the
> math as explained to me by Broker Guy just didn't make sense. So I did
> the math and figures don't lie. How can a buyer pay $13.5 for an
> animal, seller gets $10k... broker gets $3.5k yet claims he makes
> nothing? Well I'll take that kind of nothing every day, thanks! Send
> 'em all my way!
>
>

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[AlpacaTalk] Marketing 101

So after writing an off-list reply to someone regarding the stinky pile
I stepped in recently, I finally figured out what my problem was. It'll
take awhile to flesh it all out for everyone, so bear with me.

So, say down on their luck Alpaca Breeder A has some alpacas to sell.
Entrepreneur/Broker/General Good Guy Just Helping Out has a great deal
to help out Breeder A. Broker will take Breeder A's alpaca/s on
consignment. He will market them, keep them bred, feed and perform all
necessary care for them on his farm. What is Breeder A's bottom dollar
for alpaca X? Ok, we've decided that. So these alpacas actually have a
greater market value, probably. The example put to me was 50%, or more,
difference in those figures. So Broker works and works, breeds the open
dam to his sire... includes another free breed after delivery of the
cria.

Finally a buyer comes along. Let's say he/she buys Alpaca X. Broker has
invested so much time and effort, and services of his sire/s, that his
final profit is next to nothing. But actually, he has seen 1/3 of the
sales price of these animals go into his own pocket. Let's use easy
round numbers, that were offered as an example. Breeder A wants no less
than $10k for Alpaca X. Market value may be easily $15k. Broker markets
Alpaca X for $15k. Makes sure she's bred (to his sire). He controls
care and feeding, vet care, etc. Say we finally get a buyer, who can't
afford more than $13.5k. I'm not sure how the contract reads between
Breeder and Broker, but say Breeder actually receives the $10k they
required. Broker then receives $3.5k for his efforts. Well that looks
like a 35% commission to me. If he'd gotten he full $15k price, that
would have been a realization of a 50% commission.

Oh, he's given free breedings to his personally owned sire! Which he
claims are worth $2k each! So now he's actually lost money because he
gave away for free those two breedings to his sire. Not to mention all
the time and effort of marketing this female alpaca. But he did get a
check for $3500, no? I can claim that breedings to my own multi-blue
ribbon winning son of a famous rose grey sire are worth a bajillion
dollars, but until I get that for one breeding, it's not necessarily
true. In fact, I'll happily take $500 per breed for each of my boys
right now. Seriously.

Gentle readers, marketing is part of the business. Farm visits and
mentoring are part of the business. Free breedings are part of the
business. Helping site barns and fencelines are part of the business.
You don't lose profit my providing those services, you hopefully gain
clients and partnerships. Hand-holding and answering frantic calls are
part of the business. You never lose on good service.

Some years ago, I sold a dam for a certain price. I included a son of
hers (18µ at 2 years and incredibly silky fiber) for free as a deal
sweetener. We also included a free breedback for the dam. Did I lose
money? Maybe, actually. :) But I have a client who still calls and
recommends us to other breeders, everyone she knows. And how much work
would that boy have gotten on my farm? Not much. Plus I would have had
to feed him and scoop his poop for all these years. Did that free
breedback cost us anything? Not really. So we've saved money actually,
and lots of poop scooping. :) Plus I did reserve breedings to the boy.
So everyone's happy.

So that's my take on this issue. I don't want to upset anyone, but the
math as explained to me by Broker Guy just didn't make sense. So I did
the math and figures don't lie. How can a buyer pay $13.5 for an
animal, seller gets $10k... broker gets $3.5k yet claims he makes
nothing? Well I'll take that kind of nothing every day, thanks! Send
'em all my way!

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Was Buying alpaca fiber? Now about these boys

Hi Jennifer,
I think we all need to be "breeding for boys!" I have a new little TB
boy this year with white face and socks, which generally is a horrible
thing. Those dreaded white spots! But, his fleece is so darned crimpy,
I'm actually glad he's a boy and am no longer dismayed over his white
socks. Boy, he's a cutie, and has a sweet personality... plus the fabu
fiber.

And let me just take this opportunity to say how great everyone's
alpaca fleece really is! My mom bought an electric drum carder this
afternoon and I was along for the ride. The seller of the carder used
to raise sheep and the carder had some leftover wool in the teeth. We
took some of an alpaca fleece along to try out on the carder, which was
sort of blended with the wool during the test run... Good lord let me
tell you that this not very great, not very fine (by our standards),
alpaca fleece was so much better than the wool that was already on the
carder! The wool felt to me like some cheap junky polyester batting for
quilting you buy in the fabric store. No lie.

So good work everyone on your alpacas! Even our not good stuff is way
better than any wool! Well, merino maybe can give us some trouble...
Now we just need to market our fleece and get good products in every
household!

Heather

Heather Zeleny
White Lotus Alpacas
(formerly West Wind Alpacas)
Eugene, OR

541.895.0964

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece
http://www.alpacanation.com/whitelotus.asp
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AlpacaTalk/join

On Aug 1, 2008, at 12:11 PM, Jennifer J Powers wrote:

> Hello all,
> thought I would chime in re what to do about these
> boys. It is as they say "the cost of doing business"
> that we need to work on placing these boys and
> mentoring ALL of our clients on every level of the
> business.
>
> Here is our strategy for what to do with our fiber
> boys:
> Firstly, we chose every single breeding with the hopes
> that it will produce a boy. Meaning we work long and
> hard on every breeding decision. And no we do not have
> a big budget. Breeding for girls or simply for "more
> alpacas" is not the road to improvement.
>
> I write this as a small rancher having 85% boys over
> the course of our ranches lifetime. YIKES!
> Because we work so hard on each and every breeding I
> can also say that our boys have been very profitable
> for us.
>
> We have been lucky enough (the harder we work the
> luckier we get) to place all the gelding boys we have
> wanted to move. One thing to keep in mind is that
> every gelding purchaser is a potential future breeder.
>
> There are small fiber farms out there, folks with a
> goat, a couple sheep breeds and a lot of fiber talent
> that would LOVE to have a couple fiber boys. The trick
> is to find them. Fiber/spinning/weaving guilds are the
> first places to look. Most of these have free sales
> listings. You may get less than you want for the boys
> but they will be in homes that not only tend them well
> but use their precious fleece. The more folks who fall
> in love with alpaca fleeces the better.
>
> Okay enough rambling.
> The point is we need to put the same effort and energy
> into placing our gelding boys as we do selling our
> girls.
>
> Bluest Skies
> Jennifer Powers
> Aero Ranch Suri Alpacas
> Browns Valley CA
> 530-741-2376
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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RE: [AlpacaTalk] Was Buying alpaca fiber? Now about these boys

Hello all,
thought I would chime in re what to do about these
boys. It is as they say "the cost of doing business"
that we need to work on placing these boys and
mentoring ALL of our clients on every level of the
business.

Here is our strategy for what to do with our fiber
boys:
Firstly, we chose every single breeding with the hopes
that it will produce a boy. Meaning we work long and
hard on every breeding decision. And no we do not have
a big budget. Breeding for girls or simply for "more
alpacas" is not the road to improvement.

I write this as a small rancher having 85% boys over
the course of our ranches lifetime. YIKES!
Because we work so hard on each and every breeding I
can also say that our boys have been very profitable
for us.

We have been lucky enough (the harder we work the
luckier we get) to place all the gelding boys we have
wanted to move. One thing to keep in mind is that
every gelding purchaser is a potential future breeder.

There are small fiber farms out there, folks with a
goat, a couple sheep breeds and a lot of fiber talent
that would LOVE to have a couple fiber boys. The trick
is to find them. Fiber/spinning/weaving guilds are the
first places to look. Most of these have free sales
listings. You may get less than you want for the boys
but they will be in homes that not only tend them well
but use their precious fleece. The more folks who fall
in love with alpaca fleeces the better.

Okay enough rambling.
The point is we need to put the same effort and energy
into placing our gelding boys as we do selling our
girls.

Bluest Skies
Jennifer Powers
Aero Ranch Suri Alpacas
Browns Valley CA
530-741-2376

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RE: [AlpacaTalk] Buying alpaca fiber?

Dear List,

I want to make this plain. All of us have males who "do not measure up:"
They need to be used in some other kind of herd than a breeding herd. We
are as an industry all encouraging new folks who are interested in starting
with alpacas to start with fiber males.who can be very nice pets if placed
in small herds..and can make some income for their owners from fiber. As an
industry we do not yet have enough good answers for dealing with pet males.
FF and other larger breeders of repute are trying to deal with this problem
responsibly by making both fiber and pet males a viable industry income
stream through bringing new herders into the industry. However we as a
whole are not yet fully facing the large quantities of males who will never
be used for stud. We as an industry are the ones who are cruel.the farms
who are trying to develop a plan to deal with excess males are not the ones
who are at fault here. We all share the blame. It is our males that need
homes and a purpose. Are we working to realize that for them?

All alpaca owners who expect all those males who are not breeders to
suddenly evaporate are cruel. Having to sell them to places that then must
move them in small groups through venues that are not intended to place them
with educated owners.or who don't have the means to mentor and educate new
owners..they are the ones who are eventually at fault here. All the farms
who buy these little guys wholesale and then try to package them for retail
sale to the new alpaca herders.whom they try to educate.face a terrible
task.at a great cost that they cannot expect to successfully shoulder alone.
We as an industry need to do more. Just because they buy males from other
farms who are faced with placing that large crop each year does not make
them terrible.we are all responsible at some level. We need to make a
greater effort to educate and mentor new alpaca owners.

We need to support our own AFCNA in its attempts to find a mill market and
processing market that will be able to use our fiber. We must support AFCNA
in helping it to build markets for all our fiber grades and qualities. That
will. allow fiber herds to become more viable as a business and it will give
us a place for those excess males where they can have a livestock value that
will support their care.

I am sure that if we think on these issues as an industry .then we can and
must come up with better answers. We would not have to move these guys out
so young, if there were an obvious market for their qualities.

Allison Moss-Fritch

Santa Clara, CA

From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Allison Moss-Fritch
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 8:58 AM
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AlpacaTalk] Buying alpaca fiber?

One of the questions I've been asking myself..as I gather that this farm is
getting large shipments of very young weanling males.is which big breeders
elsewhere are willing to take a $100 or so per baby and then ship them off
to this sales farm that takes such poor care of them.

That is a question that you also should ask: What are their sources of
registered pure blood alpaca males with fancy schmancy names.which are truly
only fiber herd material and should never be sold through such venues as
farmer's markets and livestock auctions.to the unsuspecting and uneducated
public.

Allison Moss-Fritch

New Moon Alpacas

Santa Clara, CA

From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AlpacaTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AlpacaTalk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On
Behalf Of Heather Zeleny
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 8:17 AM
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AlpacaTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Buying alpaca fiber?

This can't possibly the same farm that has Peruvian Fabio, owned the
great Alianza Peruvian King Solomon since import?

Heather

On Aug 1, 2008, at 12:51 AM, Allison Moss-Fritch wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> Fantasy farms is the group behind the "Cash for your fiber" and the
> company
> AAFF. Fantasy Farms, in case you have not recognized them--- are the
> folks
> who are buying all the little male weanlings they can come across at
> the
> cheapest prices they can.and then turning around and selling them at
> Farmer's markets and Auctions singly to folks as the "ideal pet" .for
> your
> child, etc. These little weanlings are sent home with folks who don't
> even
> understand that they CANT live alone and survive.and the price that
> they are
> sold at.$1000 per animal! These buyers are ignorant of their needs,
> their
> health requirements.everything.
>
> So..they are not folks that I'd spend time getting my fiber to.for
> myriad
> reasons.
>
> If you need to know more about Fantasy Farms..google "pet alpaca" or
> ask Jim
> Patrick at Patrick's Pastures.who has been getting calls from new
> buyers
> whose alpaca pet boys bought from Fantasy Farms are "not doing so
> well".and
> would he please do the mentoring or maybe buy the animal from the new
> owners..even though he's had nothing to do with the sale except live
> in the
> same state where Fantasy Farms is located.
>
> Jeannie Wells of Wellspring Suris has the sad luck to live near
> enough to
> these folks to see into their barns.and she says that the little boys
> look
> so morose! She is also upset at the idea that someone is so callous to
> these little male weanlings from all over the country.bought for a
> song and
> sold at an inflated price singly.and without proper education of the
> buyers.
> Sets up everyone for a bad experience.so Texans in Alpacas are trying
> to do
> something about it through their AOBA affiliate organization. The
> dumping
> of these boys is very cruel. If their business ethics are as good in
> other
> parts of their business.I would not let them buy my fiber either.
>
> Allison Moss-Fritch
>
> Santa Clara, CA
>
> New Moon Alpacas
>
> From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AlpacaTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:AlpacaTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AlpacaTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:AlpacaTalk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
> On
> Behalf Of Heather Zeleny
> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 4:40 PM
> To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AlpacaTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:AlpacaTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [AlpacaTalk] Buying alpaca fiber?
>
> Hi everyone!
>
> I suppose you all got the mass email today for "CASH FOR YOUR ALPACA
> FIBER" from the American Alpaca Fiber Federation, LLC. I followed the
> link and what I garnered from scanning the page was that they will be
> making 80% cotton 20% alpaca denim??? I didn't see what they planned
> to
> pay for the fleece they buy. I apologize in advance for being a bit
> skeptical, but I don't really want alpaca in my denim, and I do want
> to
> know what someone will pay me for my fleece.
>
> Here in Oregon, we have a really great project going, thanks 100% to
> Peter and Carol Lundberg. It's the Pendleton Alpaca Blanket Project. I
> have donated almost 30 pounds of fleece. That was all of the "good
> stuff" I was willing to part with! Many others have donated far more,
> and people are still donating fleece! Please follow this link to learn
> about this very exciting project!
> http://www.elderberrycreekalpacas.com/
>
> The idea is, we donate fleece, and those who have made donations by
> June 15th (yes, that date has passed but they may be flexible on this)
> have the opportunity to purchase throws at cost plus 3%, which they
> estimate will come to less than $40 per blanket. We can then re-sell
> them at an estimated retail price of... I dunno, what does a 100%
> alpaca throw go for today? $100, $200? No matter, good return on your
> investment.
>
> In the future, they plan to and really want to be able to purchase
> fleece from growers (us) at a minimum of $2 per pound. I know, that
> sounds like peanuts... sort of. It is an avenue to sell your product.
> It is a place to grow our industry. I know they want to offer more
> than
> that in the future.
>
> Wanna know what I think might be happening with that American alpaca
> "co-op"? I think they gather up all the fleece, have it processed,
> sell
> it at very low prices to Red Maple and other partner vendors, and then
> sell the finished product back to us, the producers. They don't offer
> cone yarn to us. They just want our free fleece. And then maybe they
> write a token check for a couple 100 bucks for your 10 years of
> membership, donations, and participation. Plus members have to pay
> shipping costs. I don't think those dividend payments even pay the
> shipping!
>
> The Lundbergs and Pendleton Wool are different. We're Oregonians! We
> want to make good stuff and reward people for their hard work! It's
> hard work raising alpacas! We think everyone deserves compensation for
> their efforts!
>
> So that's my limited view. I also know that I am going to be working
> hard to make product from my 2nds and 3rds. Hey, that's the throw-away
> stuff! If we can make product from every bit of fleece that comes off
> our alpacas, we can make a go of this industry.
>
> Heather
>
> Heather Zeleny
> White Lotus Alpacas
> (formerly West Wind Alpacas)
> Eugene, OR
>
> 541.895.0964
>
> Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece
> http://www.alpacanation.com/whitelotus.asp
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AlpacaTalk/join
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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RE: [AlpacaTalk] Buying alpaca fiber?

Hi Heather,

Yes, I saw your post, very graceful.and a good idea.

Yes, most of us package our animals and do all that or expect a commission
to someone else who will do it for us. I don't think JP is charging more
than others.or he would not be able to stay in business. But we don't'
often break out the cost of the extras we package with our animals.and he's
making a business out of doing it for those who cannot do it for
themselves.so he has to place a price on it.

I'm about the same as you are and throw in the mentoring as "fertilizer" to
grow new customers and repeat customers.whatever one calls it.it does have a
value, though I have not quantified it.

Since I'm agisting (4 years now) our overhead is quite high as it is.and I
can't pass most of it through. But I've developed some good bloodlines and
some good animals.and I manage to compete.

When we finally get to our own place, our overhead will drop and we'll be
better placed on the market to make a bigger profit and stay in
business.meanwhile, it is all about earning a decent reputation..

I usually call 'em like I see 'em.and that means I occasionally mix it up
with someone else.

Let us hope that we can discuss both the aspects of brokering and the issue
of unbreedable males.at this site. It certainly needs our best minds put on
these problems if our industry can expect to ever solve them.

By the way, I'm broke or "alpaca rich and cash poor".if I had the $$...your
sale girl is pretty! If I were richer, I'd take her. I'm trying to get our
animals back down to 25 or less as we have some crias yet due this year.
The market is very quiet and I wish for both of us that it were not!

Allison

From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Heather Zeleny
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 10:52 AM
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Buying alpaca fiber?

Hi Alison,
I have apologized for the information that I passed on. I won't say who
gave me that figure, but it was a reliable breeder.

As I said, we also offer all of those services, time, breedings, we
handle alpacas for our friends and clients in shows, we offer free
breedbacks. We offer free agisting for up to 6 months on sales. I have
a substantial new buyer package that I offer. And the free transport on
major purchases.

Brokering an animal used to command a 10% commission. The broker of
course did all the advertising, everything one does to make a sale. If
the broker had the animal on their farm, the commission was raised to
15% to cover the cost of care and feeding.

So it looks like semantics to me.

I want $15,000 for lovely alpaca X. I offer two free breedings (at
least $1000 value, each), I pay transport to buyer's farm ($500 value,
easy), I offer 6 months free agisting (180 days x $2.50 = $450 value),
I take her to shows and handle her if buyers desire. There are
"professional" show handlers who charge $50 per class. I don't charge
that. The new owner/buyer does need to pay their entry and portion of
stalling at the show, though. We don't charge to transport their animal
to the show, either. That's just part of the service and support that
we offer.

According to one person's logic, I've actually made less than $12,000
on the sale of this alpaca after I deduct all of those freebies I
include. Oh, right, consulting, mentoring, farm visits, education, herd
health instruction, how much do I deduct for those services? You see,
it's just part of the business. We do it because it's the right thing
to do. True, it's maybe not too common anymore. But we do it and have
always done it. But according to some, my profit has gone down to next
to nothing!

I don't see it that way. As I said, it's semantics.

Heather

Heather Zeleny
White Lotus Alpacas
(formerly West Wind Alpacas)
Eugene, OR

541.895.0964

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece
http://www.alpacanation.com/whitelotus.asp
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AlpacaTalk/join

On Aug 1, 2008, at 9:59 AM, Allison Moss-Fritch wrote:

> Hi Heather,
>
> I don't think your info on Jim Patrick is accurate.and I should know
> as I
> have discussed selling some of mine through Jim if I had what he
> needed.
> While there is a difference between list and sale prices.it is always
> the
> meeting of minds between two motivated folks who know industry prices.
> Perhaps you are not aware of Jim's costs either. I was not given
> prices
> that included any 50% fees.I set my own prices I wanted for my animals
> wholesale. If Jim then feeds, shows, advertises and packages with
> breedbacks.as well as all the other services and mentoring and
> general value
> added that he does.then what he can realize for his "values added"
> are what
> the market will bear.and that is not likely to be more than a regular
> brokering fee we'd pay anywhere.
>
> I think it would be a good idea if we limited our discussions of Jim
> to a
> site where he's a member, in all fairness. I don't think he's a member
> here, so far as I know. I know Jim well and I've never seen him other
> than
> honorable and ethical.
>
> So in sum I think we should return to a discussion of the real issues
> presented by our industry. We need to be talking about the 50 % of
> our cria
> crop that is male.and the 40% of our cria crop which is never going
> to be
> breeders.we owe them some fairness in their lives and some safe
> places to be
> an alpaca. So I think we owe Jim an apology and our public and buyers
> some
> education.
>
> Allison Moss-Fritch
>
> New Moon Alpacas
>
> Santa Clara, CA
>
> http://www.newmoonalpacas.com
>
> From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AlpacaTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AlpacaTalk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
> On
> Behalf Of Heather Zeleny
> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 9:20 AM
> To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AlpacaTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Buying alpaca fiber?
>
> I guess I missed most of the discussion regarding these pet male
> sales.
> Do we know for a fact that Fantasy Farm Tx is buying pet males from
> other breeders? Or are they their own pet males? They do have a large
> farm, over 45 females for sale, so I'm sure they get plenty of pet
> boys
> born every year!
>
> As for Jim Patrick, well, I don't care much for his scheme, either.
> Buying your animals at $.50 on the dollar and then he makes the
> profit... To me that says greed, the usual 10-15% brokerage fee isn't
> enough, he requires 50%.
>
> I just wish we had people queuing up to give US $1000 each for our pet
> boys!
>
> I absolutely agree about not selling alpacas at farmer's markets and
> livestock auction houses. And I just can't shake the bad feeling I
> have
> about that alpaca auction "house" in Nebraska... No online info, no
> catalog of lots for sale... I have the feeling it's run like one of
> those livestock auctions. I have heard too many stores about people
> buying animals there and then asking "What do they eat?" And I have
> even heard about people buying unweaned crias as pets, so they can
> bond
> with them.
>
> We get calls for mentoring and after sale support- from other people's
> clients! Of course we answer any question and offer our knowledge and
> experience, but hey people! We have good alpacas too, many ribbon
> winners! Good blood lines!
>
> Heather
>
> On Aug 1, 2008, at 8:58 AM, Allison Moss-Fritch wrote:
>
> > One of the questions I've been asking myself..as I gather that this
> > farm is
> > getting large shipments of very young weanling males.is which big
> > breeders
> > elsewhere are willing to take a $100 or so per baby and then ship
> > them off
> > to this sales farm that takes such poor care of them.
> >
> > That is a question that you also should ask: What are their sources
> of
> > registered pure blood alpaca males with fancy schmancy names.which
> > are truly
> > only fiber herd material and should never be sold through such
> venues
> > as
> > farmer's markets and livestock auctions.to the unsuspecting and
> > uneducated
> > public.
> >
> > Allison Moss-Fritch
> >
> > New Moon Alpacas
> >
> > Santa Clara, CA
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Buying alpaca fiber?

Hey Heather,
Don't want to dump on you even more--but I did want to say a few things about the Alpaca Auctions in Nebraska. We live only 50 miles from the auction and have attended quite a few of them. In my experience, watching the buyers, most either already have alpacas or have enough interest that they have spent hours before the auction doing research and talking to the owners of the animals for sale. We have had several people who have contacted us, come for a farm visit and listen to us preach.... YOU MUST HAVE MORE THAN ONE ALPACA...horses, cows, goats and sheep do NOT count!! We have even made some of those potential buyers change their mind about going to the auction.
This Nebraska auction does have a place in the industry, it is another option for reducing your herd by a few animals or the whole herd. Not all auctions can be the best, breeders choice, elite of auctions. Not all auction organizers are high tech, computer literate or are trying to run a high-class show, some just run a bare-bones operation and that is what works for them. There are alot of good to average alpacas out there that fit someones breeding or non-breeding farm. I hope I never have to use this kind of auction to sell my animals but if I do, I will be there to educate a possible owner before they bid. At least I could meet the potential buyer, unlike on-line auctions...that's another post...I just as well should have thrown my $$'s to the wind...does anyone ever sale an alpaca on those auctions??? Robin

Ace & Robin Buettenback
B4 Alpacas LLC
3742 S Locust
Grand Island Ne 68801

--- On Fri, 8/1/08, Heather Zeleny <alpacatalk@westwindalpacas.com> wrote:

From: Heather Zeleny <alpacatalk@westwindalpacas.com>
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Buying alpaca fiber?
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 11:20 AM

I guess I missed most of the discussion regarding these pet male sales.
Do we know for a fact that Fantasy Farm Tx is buying pet males from
other breeders? Or are they their own pet males? They do have a large
farm, over 45 females for sale, so I'm sure they get plenty of pet boys
born every year!

As for Jim Patrick, well, I don't care much for his scheme, either.
Buying your animals at $.50 on the dollar and then he makes the
profit... To me that says greed, the usual 10-15% brokerage fee isn't
enough, he requires 50%.

I just wish we had people queuing up to give US $1000 each for our pet
boys!

I absolutely agree about not selling alpacas at farmer's markets and
livestock auction houses. And I just can't shake the bad feeling I have
about that alpaca auction "house" in Nebraska... No online info, no
catalog of lots for sale... I have the feeling it's run like one of
those livestock auctions. I have heard too many stores about people
buying animals there and then asking "What do they eat?" And I have
even heard about people buying unweaned crias as pets, so they can bond
with them.

We get calls for mentoring and after sale support- from other people's
clients! Of course we answer any question and offer our knowledge and
experience, but hey people! We have good alpacas too, many ribbon
winners! Good blood lines!

Heather

On Aug 1, 2008, at 8:58 AM, Allison Moss-Fritch wrote:

> One of the questions I've been asking myself..as I gather that this
> farm is
> getting large shipments of very young weanling males.is which big
> breeders
> elsewhere are willing to take a $100 or so per baby and then ship
> them off
> to this sales farm that takes such poor care of them.
>
> That is a question that you also should ask: What are their sources of
> registered pure blood alpaca males with fancy schmancy names.which
> are truly
> only fiber herd material and should never be sold through such venues
> as
> farmer's markets and livestock auctions.to the unsuspecting and
> uneducated
> public.
>
> Allison Moss-Fritch
>
> New Moon Alpacas
>
> Santa Clara, CA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

__._,_.___

Messages in this topic (13) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic

Messages | Files | Photos | Links

Message posts are the opinion of individuals posting and are not necessarily endorsed or approved by Yahoo! or the moderator of this group. The purpose of this discussion group is to ensure that all points of view can be aired. It is the responsbilty of all individuals who post to treat others with respect and civility.

Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional
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.

__,_._,___

Re: [AlpacaTalk] Buying alpaca fiber?

Hi Alison,
I have apologized for the information that I passed on. I won't say who
gave me that figure, but it was a reliable breeder.

As I said, we also offer all of those services, time, breedings, we
handle alpacas for our friends and clients in shows, we offer free
breedbacks. We offer free agisting for up to 6 months on sales. I have
a substantial new buyer package that I offer. And the free transport on
major purchases.

Brokering an animal used to command a 10% commission. The broker of
course did all the advertising, everything one does to make a sale. If
the broker had the animal on their farm, the commission was raised to
15% to cover the cost of care and feeding.

So it looks like semantics to me.

I want $15,000 for lovely alpaca X. I offer two free breedings (at
least $1000 value, each), I pay transport to buyer's farm ($500 value,
easy), I offer 6 months free agisting (180 days x $2.50 = $450 value),
I take her to shows and handle her if buyers desire. There are
"professional" show handlers who charge $50 per class. I don't charge
that. The new owner/buyer does need to pay their entry and portion of
stalling at the show, though. We don't charge to transport their animal
to the show, either. That's just part of the service and support that
we offer.

According to one person's logic, I've actually made less than $12,000
on the sale of this alpaca after I deduct all of those freebies I
include. Oh, right, consulting, mentoring, farm visits, education, herd
health instruction, how much do I deduct for those services? You see,
it's just part of the business. We do it because it's the right thing
to do. True, it's maybe not too common anymore. But we do it and have
always done it. But according to some, my profit has gone down to next
to nothing!

I don't see it that way. As I said, it's semantics.

Heather

Heather Zeleny
White Lotus Alpacas
(formerly West Wind Alpacas)
Eugene, OR

541.895.0964

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece
http://www.alpacanation.com/whitelotus.asp
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AlpacaTalk/join

On Aug 1, 2008, at 9:59 AM, Allison Moss-Fritch wrote:

> Hi Heather,
>
> I don't think your info on Jim Patrick is accurate.and I should know
> as I
> have discussed selling some of mine through Jim if I had what he
> needed.
> While there is a difference between list and sale prices.it is always
> the
> meeting of minds between two motivated folks who know industry prices.
> Perhaps you are not aware of Jim's costs either. I was not given
> prices
> that included any 50% fees.I set my own prices I wanted for my animals
> wholesale. If Jim then feeds, shows, advertises and packages with
> breedbacks.as well as all the other services and mentoring and
> general value
> added that he does.then what he can realize for his "values added"
> are what
> the market will bear.and that is not likely to be more than a regular
> brokering fee we'd pay anywhere.
>
> I think it would be a good idea if we limited our discussions of Jim
> to a
> site where he's a member, in all fairness. I don't think he's a member
> here, so far as I know. I know Jim well and I've never seen him other
> than
> honorable and ethical.
>
> So in sum I think we should return to a discussion of the real issues
> presented by our industry. We need to be talking about the 50 % of
> our cria
> crop that is male.and the 40% of our cria crop which is never going
> to be
> breeders.we owe them some fairness in their lives and some safe
> places to be
> an alpaca. So I think we owe Jim an apology and our public and buyers
> some
> education.
>
> Allison Moss-Fritch
>
> New Moon Alpacas
>
> Santa Clara, CA
>
> http://www.newmoonalpacas.com
>
> From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com]
> On
> Behalf Of Heather Zeleny
> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 9:20 AM
> To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Buying alpaca fiber?
>
> I guess I missed most of the discussion regarding these pet male
> sales.
> Do we know for a fact that Fantasy Farm Tx is buying pet males from
> other breeders? Or are they their own pet males? They do have a large
> farm, over 45 females for sale, so I'm sure they get plenty of pet
> boys
> born every year!
>
> As for Jim Patrick, well, I don't care much for his scheme, either.
> Buying your animals at $.50 on the dollar and then he makes the
> profit... To me that says greed, the usual 10-15% brokerage fee isn't
> enough, he requires 50%.
>
> I just wish we had people queuing up to give US $1000 each for our pet
> boys!
>
> I absolutely agree about not selling alpacas at farmer's markets and
> livestock auction houses. And I just can't shake the bad feeling I
> have
> about that alpaca auction "house" in Nebraska... No online info, no
> catalog of lots for sale... I have the feeling it's run like one of
> those livestock auctions. I have heard too many stores about people
> buying animals there and then asking "What do they eat?" And I have
> even heard about people buying unweaned crias as pets, so they can
> bond
> with them.
>
> We get calls for mentoring and after sale support- from other people's
> clients! Of course we answer any question and offer our knowledge and
> experience, but hey people! We have good alpacas too, many ribbon
> winners! Good blood lines!
>
> Heather
>
> On Aug 1, 2008, at 8:58 AM, Allison Moss-Fritch wrote:
>
> > One of the questions I've been asking myself..as I gather that this
> > farm is
> > getting large shipments of very young weanling males.is which big
> > breeders
> > elsewhere are willing to take a $100 or so per baby and then ship
> > them off
> > to this sales farm that takes such poor care of them.
> >
> > That is a question that you also should ask: What are their sources
> of
> > registered pure blood alpaca males with fancy schmancy names.which
> > are truly
> > only fiber herd material and should never be sold through such
> venues
> > as
> > farmer's markets and livestock auctions.to the unsuspecting and
> > uneducated
> > public.
> >
> > Allison Moss-Fritch
> >
> > New Moon Alpacas
> >
> > Santa Clara, CA
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

__._,_.___

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Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional
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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Was Buying alpaca fiber? Now about these boys

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RE: [AlpacaTalk] Was Buying alpaca fiber? Now about these boys

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RE: [AlpacaTalk] Buying alpaca fiber?

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RE: [AlpacaTalk] Buying alpaca fiber?

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