Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Wednesday, December 17, 2008

Re: [AlpacaTalk] feed

Hi Wendy,
Sorry, this email got caught in Yahoo's spam filter for some reason,
others you've sent today and recently went through fine! Weird!

Stillwater minerals are made for llamas and alpacas. That's what we
have always used. You can get them straight from Stillwater, at their
website, and I believe they offer free shipping. However, they are only
available in large quantities. It's not a problem for the minerals,
since minerals are rocks :) but vitamins do have a shelf life, and
degrade after a short period of time. Even "stabilized" vitamins are
only good for no more than a year, and that's really pushing it! We
recommend that people who use our feed only have enough on hand that
they'll use in no more than 3 months. Since we get a new ton every two
weeks, they don't even need to have it around that long! But that's
beside the point...

Perhaps you and some other breeders in your area can "go in" on some
Stillwater or Cache la Poudre, or some other alpaca or llama mix, and
replenish with fresh stuff every few months? Zinpro 100 comes in a 5 lb
bucket, if you have a small herd, even 5 lbs will last a long time!

Quality Llama Products, Useful Items, I think Jeffersvet all carry
camelid products. And try googling alpaca mineral or something like
that.

We don't grind the flax seed, I think the alpacas do a fine job of it
on their own. Some people will say that there is increased risk of
tooth/gum abcess from a seed getting wedged in the gum, but I feel that
risk is negligible, no more than a piece of straw or hay, I think...
And flax will go rancid very quickly once its ground. Seeds are meant
to stay fresh if left whole, until they sprout. Nature is really great
that way. :) EFAs are essential Fatty Acids. Flax seed is loaded with
em and it really improves fleece luster, crimp, color, and character.
We feed about 1 tablespoon topdress daily. Just make sure there is no
chance your alpacas can access it even if there is a "gate incident".
Someone lost two dams when they each ate around 1 cup of flax seed
after breaking out of their stalls and into the barn. Many seeds,
including flax, contains small amounts of prussic acid, which is a form
of cyanide. Consumed in large quantities, it can cause problems.
Smaller amounts of prussic acid does not cause any harm and is
eliminated by the metabolic processes. I have seen it recommended to
substitute chia seed for flax, but it costs over 3 times what flax
does! For a herd of 50+, it can be prohibitive!

So very long story short, if I had no access to a good, grain free
alpaca feed, I would feed either alfalfa or timothy hay pellets
topdressed with 1 T flax seed, and a bit of mineral mix either topdress
(according to instructions) or free choice. For pregnant and nursing
dams, we also topdress with up to 2 T of stabilized rice bran. Some of
our older girls really get thin as their crias grow!

But I can't stress enough, and I haven't talked about this in a long
time, is that we do not feed grain to our alpacas. They are modified
ruminants, and they're just not evolved to process starches and sugars
in the gut. Causes acidosis and leads to ulcers. We lost a color
champion to a perforated ulcer on her 1st birthday when we did feed a
corn/grain-based feed. And had our fleeces micron blow out up to 10
microns in one year, in young animals! We knew it had to be the feed!

Ok, I'm tired and have a headache. I'll write more tomorrow and answer
any questions. :)

Heather

On Dec 17, 2008, at 7:07 PM, Wendy Edwards wrote:

> hi Heather - i have often wondered about the feed we give our alpacas
> - here on the island, alpaca farmers "all" seem to feed the bagged
> alpaca pellets with (a few without) dairy mix - i questioned this when
> we bought our first alpacas, but the folks we bought them from told me
> that is what they are fed. Since then i have read a lot and sought out
> advice on feeding - apparantly there isn't anywhere here that will
> make up a custom feed.
>
> I have tried various feeds and supplements in addition to the alpaca
> pellets, some they would eat grudgingly, some not at all. I don't know
> what Stillwater minerals are.
>
> We have access to good orchard grass hay and the alpacas have free
> choice hay at all times. I feed my males the same feed as my females,
> although in a smaller amount. Last year the shearer told me all my
> animals are fat. I know this is not a good thing
>
> after following along on this discussion (Alpacatalk) i have bought a
> bag of flax seed. Heather, my question is do you grind the flax before
> you feed it to your alpacas? Also, and this is likely a dumb question,
> what is or are EFAs? Healthy animals and fine fleece are my goals but
> the feed issue is a huge one for me.
>
> thanks for any clarification you can provide.
> Wendy
> DreamWeaver Alpacas
> BC

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] feed

hi Heather - i have often wondered about the feed we give our alpacas - here on the island, alpaca farmers "all" seem to feed the bagged alpaca pellets with (a few without) dairy mix - i questioned this when we bought our first alpacas, but the folks we bought them from told me that is what they are fed. Since then i have read a lot and sought out advice on feeding - apparantly there isn't anywhere here that will make up a custom feed.

I have tried various feeds and supplements in addition to the alpaca pellets, some they would eat grudgingly, some not at all. I don't know what Stillwater minerals are.

We have access to good orchard grass hay and the alpacas have free choice hay at all times. I feed my males the same feed as my females, although in a smaller amount. Last year the shearer told me all my animals are fat. I know this is not a good thing

after following along on this discussion (Alpacatalk) i have bought a bag of flax seed. Heather, my question is do you grind the flax before you feed it to your alpacas? Also, and this is likely a dumb question, what is or are EFAs? Healthy animals and fine fleece are my goals but the feed issue is a huge one for me.

thanks for any clarification you can provide.
Wendy
DreamWeaver Alpacas
BC

----- Original Message -----
From: Heather Zeleny
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] feed

We feed all of our alpacas their pellets. Ours have a negligible amount
of grain in them but are based on alfalfa. They are basically the
carrier for the vitamin mineral mix, and they have flax seed as well,
for EFAs for the fleece.

I do see that many people say they don't feed pellets to males except
during breeding season, and not to geldings. It;s not something I
necessarily agree with, but maybe those people give free choice
Stillwater minerals to the boys. In that case, I have no disagreement.

Heather

On Dec 17, 2008, at 12:49 PM, Wendy Edwards wrote:

> hi - i don't remember who said it, but there was mention of the boys /
> geldings not needing pellets or grain - Is this concept common among
> alpaca farmers?
>
> Wendy
> DreamWeaver Alpacas
> Port Alberni, BC

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [AlpacaTalk] feed

We feed all of our alpacas their pellets. Ours have a negligible amount
of grain in them but are based on alfalfa. They are basically the
carrier for the vitamin mineral mix, and they have flax seed as well,
for EFAs for the fleece.

I do see that many people say they don't feed pellets to males except
during breeding season, and not to geldings. It;s not something I
necessarily agree with, but maybe those people give free choice
Stillwater minerals to the boys. In that case, I have no disagreement.

Heather

On Dec 17, 2008, at 12:49 PM, Wendy Edwards wrote:

> hi - i don't remember who said it, but there was mention of the boys /
> geldings not needing pellets or grain - Is this concept common among
> alpaca farmers?
>
> Wendy
> DreamWeaver Alpacas
> Port Alberni, BC

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: List of new questions

hi Michelle - what feed do you use as treats, that has the DE in it? it sounds good
Wendy
DreamWeaver Alpacas
BC
----- Original Message -----
From: Michelle
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 12:32 PM
Subject: [AlpacaTalk] Re: List of new questions

Shearing we have covered... Thanks to my neighbor, he shears llamas and
sheep, and offered to shear the pacas in April.... Worming, we use DE
(diatomaceous Earth(sp?) along with a wormer. Also the feed we use, as
treats, has the DE in and is a all natural product...
Michelle Hassinger

> TWO THINGS YOU DIDN'T ASK ABOUT ARE SHEARING AND WORMING--they must
> be sheared every year in spring or they will overheat in summer
> causing many problems, including death. Unless you are in a meningeal
> worm (white tail deer) area, we do not regularly worm, but instead do
> regular fecals and treat as needed (too many drug-resistant
> parasites). In m-worm area you treat every 4-6 weeks with Ivermectin
> or Dectomax, check with your vet on his/her local protocal/necessity.
>
> GOOD LUCK!!
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

[AlpacaTalk] feed

hi - i don't remember who said it, but there was mention of the boys / geldings not needing pellets or grain - Is this concept common among alpaca farmers?

Wendy
DreamWeaver Alpacas
Port Alberni, BC

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[AlpacaTalk] Re: List of new questions

Shearing we have covered... Thanks to my neighbor, he shears llamas and
sheep, and offered to shear the pacas in April.... Worming, we use DE
(diatomaceous Earth(sp?) along with a wormer. Also the feed we use, as
treats, has the DE in and is a all natural product...
Michelle Hassinger

> TWO THINGS YOU DIDN'T ASK ABOUT ARE SHEARING AND WORMING--they must
> be sheared every year in spring or they will overheat in summer
> causing many problems, including death. Unless you are in a meningeal
> worm (white tail deer) area, we do not regularly worm, but instead do
> regular fecals and treat as needed (too many drug-resistant
> parasites). In m-worm area you treat every 4-6 weeks with Ivermectin
> or Dectomax, check with your vet on his/her local protocal/necessity.
>
> GOOD LUCK!!
>

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: List of new questions

I too am adament about not buying Land o Lakes products since the poisoning.
BUT....got suckered in last month. I buy quite a bit of Market Day
products (school fundraiser grocery items). I bought a gift box assortment
of specialty hot chocolates and was really upset upon delivery to see that
it's from LOL, but wasn't mentioned on the sales flyer. That won't happen
again!
Carolyn Marquette,

PartyLite Gifts _PartyLite.com_ (http://www.partylite.us/)

The AlpacaRosa _www.TheAlpacaRosa.com_ (http://www.thealpacarosa.com/)
2251 Sesame St
Mogadore, OH 44260
330-699-2182
330-618-9769 cell
**************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail,
Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now.
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025)

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: List of new questions

We use 5' no-climb 6' is better especially for exterior fencelines, but
I prefer the V or Diamond mesh as it's sometimes called. As the alpacas
rub or scratch themselves on the no-climb, the little wire wraps that
lock the fencing in place catch their fleece. The Diamond or V mesh
doesn't have those little pieces. I would definitely NOT use welded
wire. The alpacas really do put a lot of pressure on the fencelines in
their rubbing and scratching, and welded wire just pops and those welds
do not hold.

Get in touch with your local breeders. They'll be happy to tell you
what kind of hay they buy. We have really nice Eastern Oregon 2nd
cutting Orchard grass, but as I understand it, Orchard grass isn't
available in all areas.

Definitely use Stillwater or Cache la Poudre, or other mineral mix made
for alpacas. Sheep, cattle or horse minerals are not appropriate.
Definitely do not use medicated feeds containing ionophores made for
sheep or goats. They WILL kill alpacas. See Magical Farms' website for
graphic details of the Land O Lakes poisoning in 2004. Also, please
boycott all products made by Land O Lakes. They refused to accept
responsibility for their actions. To this day I won't buy any LOL
product, not butter, cheese, anything made by them. Also, CHS feeds are
a subsidiary of LOL.

Heather

On Dec 17, 2008, at 9:35 AM, dreamwoodalpacas wrote:

> Not an expert, but I'll do my best (see below--I used all caps so you
> could see my answers--I'm not yelling :)). Also, if you look in the
> archives of this group or alpacasite, you'll find answers to these
> and many more. Another great resource for the beginner is www.Alpaca-
> Pet.com. A group of alpaca breeders got together and wrote some
> articles on the basics of having alpacas, I HIGHLY recommend it.
>
> Cheers,
> Morgen Bowers
> Dreamwood Farm
> Claverack, NY
> 518-697-9995
>
> > I have ordered several books, but they haven't come in yet so I
> will
> > ask a few more questions, if you guys adn gals don't mind.
> >
> > 1. Copper content in feed.... How much is to much?
> > We are getting a natural product, with a low content. But we were
> > wondering where what is the limit on copper, and any other
> vitamins,
> > and minerals.
> ALPACAS ARE SENSITIVE TO COOPER,I DON'T KNOW THE NUMBERS, BUT HORSE
> FEED HAS WAY TOO MUCH. YOU SHOULD FEED MINERAL BLENDS INTENDED FOR
> CAMELIDS ONLY, TWO BRANDS ARE STILLWATER AND BLUE SEAL'S DR. EVANS
> BLEND. YOU CAN USUALLY GET THEM AT YOUR LOCAL FEEDSTORE, IF NOT, YOU
> CNA ORDER ONLINE. SAME GOES WITH FEED--USE FEED INTENDED FOR CAMELIDS
> ONLY, HOWEVER, ALOT OF PEOPLE DO NOT FEED MALES FEED. ALPACAS
> PRIMARILY NEED FORAGE, NOT GRAIN, SO THE FEED IS USUALLY JUST A WAY
> TO GET VITAMINS AND MINERALS INTO THE ANIMAL.
>
> >
> > 2.Hay. Alfafa(sp?) or Coastal. Right now we are using a organic
> > Weed free 16% coastal. They eat every bit of it.....
> I DON'T KNOW ABOUT COASTAL, MOST PEOPLE FEED ORCHARD GRASS. STAY AWAY
> FROM PERENNIAL RYE AND FESCUE, UNLESS IT IS ENDOPHYTE-FREE. ALFALFA
> IS FINE AS A TREAT, BUT WILL MAKE THEM FAT AND BLOW OUT THEIR FLEECE
> (INCREASE ITS MICRON).
>
> >
> > 3. Fencing. Right now I have them in a movible fencing. The rest
> of
> > my property is barbwire and we are working on changing that. But
> what
> > is the best fencing for them?
> I USE WELDED WIRE 2"X4" FENCING--5' HIGH ON THE EXTERIOR AND 4' ON
> THE INTERIOR. IN THE FUTURE IT WILL HAVE A BOARD ACROSS THE TOP, IF I
> HAD PREDATOR PROBLEMS THERE WOULD ALSO BE A TOP AND BOTTOM HOT WIRE
> ON THE OUTSIDE. ALOT OF PEOPLE USE HORSE FENCING WITH WELDED WIRE. NO-
> CLIMB (SAME AS THE WELDED, BUT IT HAS WRAPPED SEEMS INSTEAD) IS
> BETTER IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT SINCE IT LASTS LONGER AND IS EASIER TO
> STRETCH ON UNEVEN GROUND. GOAT/CATTLE FENCING (4"X4") IS NOT
> RECOMMENED DB/C THEY CAN STICK THEIR HEADS THROUGH ONE HOLE AND BACK
> IN THROUGH ANOTHER--BAD SCENE. GENERALLY SPEAKING, ELECTRIC, HIGH
> TENSILE AND SINGLE STRAND ARE NOT VERY EFFECTIVE, EXCEPT MAYBE AS
> INTERIOR FENCING. BARBED WIRE IS OBVIOUSLY NO GOOD. REMEMBER THAT THE
> PRIMARY PURPOSE OF ALPACA FENCING IS TO KEEP PREDATORS OUT, SO YOU
> NEED TO ASSESS YOUR OWN SITUATION.
>
> >
> > 4. Shelter. Do they need a full barn, or just a run through?
> > Right now we have a run through that we can close on side to keep
> the
> > cold out.
> RUN THROUGH IS FINE--THEY NEED PROTECTION FROM THE SUN IN THE SUMMER
> (HEAT IS A BIG PROBLEM FOR THEM) AND FROM PERCIPITATION AND WIND IN
> THE WINTER (PLAIN COLD IS OK, BUT A WET ALPACA WITH WIND CHILLS IS
> NOT). IF YOU WERE GOING TO BREED YOU MIGHT WANT SOMEPLACE MORE
> SHELTERED FOR THE CRIAS IF THEY WERE BORN LATE.
> >
> > 5. guard pets..... What is the best... Or even what do you have
> with
> > yours.. Our guys are in our front area,our house is there to. But
> I
> > have 2 donkeys in the back pasture, just in case coyotes get in
> back
> > there. And in my front area, I do have a baby donk. but he isn't
> in
> > the fence with the pacas. But he plays with them through the
> fence.
> > Hubby will not let me get any more dogs.
> I HAVE A LLAMA (LOW PREDATOR THREAT), SHE CAN'T DEFEND THEM, BUT SHE
> CAN GIVE WARNINGS AND ACT AS A STALLER UNTIL SOMEONE CAN COME. I
> UNDERSTAND DONKEYS ARE GOOD TOO, BUT THEY DON'T EAT THE SAME THINGS.
> LIVESTOCK GUARDIAN DOGS ARE THE BEST AS THEY ARE OFFENSIVE AND
> DEFENSIVE, BUT THAT SOUNDS OUT OF THE QUESTION. MAKE SURE YOUR
> FENCING IS HIGH, TIGHT (GATES TOO) AND USE HOT WIRES.
>
> TWO THINGS YOU DIDN'T ASK ABOUT ARE SHEARING AND WORMING--they must
> be sheared every year in spring or they will overheat in summer
> causing many problems, including death. Unless you are in a meningeal
> worm (white tail deer) area, we do not regularly worm, but instead do
> regular fecals and treat as needed (too many drug-resistant
> parasites). In m-worm area you treat every 4-6 weeks with Ivermectin
> or Dectomax, check with your vet on his/her local protocal/necessity.
>
> GOOD LUCK!!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

__._,_.___
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[AlpacaTalk] Re: List of new questions

Not an expert, but I'll do my best (see below--I used all caps so you
could see my answers--I'm not yelling :)). Also, if you look in the
archives of this group or alpacasite, you'll find answers to these
and many more. Another great resource for the beginner is www.Alpaca-
Pet.com. A group of alpaca breeders got together and wrote some
articles on the basics of having alpacas, I HIGHLY recommend it.

Cheers,
Morgen Bowers
Dreamwood Farm
Claverack, NY
518-697-9995

> I have ordered several books, but they haven't come in yet so I
will
> ask a few more questions, if you guys adn gals don't mind.
>
> 1. Copper content in feed.... How much is to much?
> We are getting a natural product, with a low content. But we were
> wondering where what is the limit on copper, and any other
vitamins,
> and minerals.
ALPACAS ARE SENSITIVE TO COOPER,I DON'T KNOW THE NUMBERS, BUT HORSE
FEED HAS WAY TOO MUCH. YOU SHOULD FEED MINERAL BLENDS INTENDED FOR
CAMELIDS ONLY, TWO BRANDS ARE STILLWATER AND BLUE SEAL'S DR. EVANS
BLEND. YOU CAN USUALLY GET THEM AT YOUR LOCAL FEEDSTORE, IF NOT, YOU
CNA ORDER ONLINE. SAME GOES WITH FEED--USE FEED INTENDED FOR CAMELIDS
ONLY, HOWEVER, ALOT OF PEOPLE DO NOT FEED MALES FEED. ALPACAS
PRIMARILY NEED FORAGE, NOT GRAIN, SO THE FEED IS USUALLY JUST A WAY
TO GET VITAMINS AND MINERALS INTO THE ANIMAL.

>
> 2.Hay. Alfafa(sp?) or Coastal. Right now we are using a organic
> Weed free 16% coastal. They eat every bit of it.....
I DON'T KNOW ABOUT COASTAL, MOST PEOPLE FEED ORCHARD GRASS. STAY AWAY
FROM PERENNIAL RYE AND FESCUE, UNLESS IT IS ENDOPHYTE-FREE. ALFALFA
IS FINE AS A TREAT, BUT WILL MAKE THEM FAT AND BLOW OUT THEIR FLEECE
(INCREASE ITS MICRON).

>
> 3. Fencing. Right now I have them in a movible fencing. The rest
of
> my property is barbwire and we are working on changing that. But
what
> is the best fencing for them?
I USE WELDED WIRE 2"X4" FENCING--5' HIGH ON THE EXTERIOR AND 4' ON
THE INTERIOR. IN THE FUTURE IT WILL HAVE A BOARD ACROSS THE TOP, IF I
HAD PREDATOR PROBLEMS THERE WOULD ALSO BE A TOP AND BOTTOM HOT WIRE
ON THE OUTSIDE. ALOT OF PEOPLE USE HORSE FENCING WITH WELDED WIRE. NO-
CLIMB (SAME AS THE WELDED, BUT IT HAS WRAPPED SEEMS INSTEAD) IS
BETTER IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT SINCE IT LASTS LONGER AND IS EASIER TO
STRETCH ON UNEVEN GROUND. GOAT/CATTLE FENCING (4"X4") IS NOT
RECOMMENED DB/C THEY CAN STICK THEIR HEADS THROUGH ONE HOLE AND BACK
IN THROUGH ANOTHER--BAD SCENE. GENERALLY SPEAKING, ELECTRIC, HIGH
TENSILE AND SINGLE STRAND ARE NOT VERY EFFECTIVE, EXCEPT MAYBE AS
INTERIOR FENCING. BARBED WIRE IS OBVIOUSLY NO GOOD. REMEMBER THAT THE
PRIMARY PURPOSE OF ALPACA FENCING IS TO KEEP PREDATORS OUT, SO YOU
NEED TO ASSESS YOUR OWN SITUATION.

>
> 4. Shelter. Do they need a full barn, or just a run through?
> Right now we have a run through that we can close on side to keep
the
> cold out.
RUN THROUGH IS FINE--THEY NEED PROTECTION FROM THE SUN IN THE SUMMER
(HEAT IS A BIG PROBLEM FOR THEM) AND FROM PERCIPITATION AND WIND IN
THE WINTER (PLAIN COLD IS OK, BUT A WET ALPACA WITH WIND CHILLS IS
NOT). IF YOU WERE GOING TO BREED YOU MIGHT WANT SOMEPLACE MORE
SHELTERED FOR THE CRIAS IF THEY WERE BORN LATE.
>
> 5. guard pets..... What is the best... Or even what do you have
with
> yours.. Our guys are in our front area,our house is there to. But
I
> have 2 donkeys in the back pasture, just in case coyotes get in
back
> there. And in my front area, I do have a baby donk. but he isn't
in
> the fence with the pacas. But he plays with them through the
fence.
> Hubby will not let me get any more dogs.
I HAVE A LLAMA (LOW PREDATOR THREAT), SHE CAN'T DEFEND THEM, BUT SHE
CAN GIVE WARNINGS AND ACT AS A STALLER UNTIL SOMEONE CAN COME. I
UNDERSTAND DONKEYS ARE GOOD TOO, BUT THEY DON'T EAT THE SAME THINGS.
LIVESTOCK GUARDIAN DOGS ARE THE BEST AS THEY ARE OFFENSIVE AND
DEFENSIVE, BUT THAT SOUNDS OUT OF THE QUESTION. MAKE SURE YOUR
FENCING IS HIGH, TIGHT (GATES TOO) AND USE HOT WIRES.

TWO THINGS YOU DIDN'T ASK ABOUT ARE SHEARING AND WORMING--they must
be sheared every year in spring or they will overheat in summer
causing many problems, including death. Unless you are in a meningeal
worm (white tail deer) area, we do not regularly worm, but instead do
regular fecals and treat as needed (too many drug-resistant
parasites). In m-worm area you treat every 4-6 weeks with Ivermectin
or Dectomax, check with your vet on his/her local protocal/necessity.

GOOD LUCK!!

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