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Wednesday, October 21, 2009

Re: [AlpacaTalk] fertility issues

 

Good move, but I would hold off the Betadine for a few weeks until she heals, it could damage the uterine tissue.  Keep us posted on her, I hope you get her to term (with a single). 
 
SUSAN

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] fertility issues

 

Yup, I was going to not breed again till spring, but do a uterine flush for 5 days with a Betadine dilution, wait 2 weeks and try again. Actually will try that on another old girl who had incredible stats as a youngster, and full Bolivian.


Maybe it wouldn't hurt to do the betadine regimen now since she just aborted?

Heather


On Oct 21, 2009, at 9:54 PM, LunarStruck@aol.com wrote:

I don't know, Heather, you've got a mystery girl on your hands.  If she doesn't get too upset by aborting I would keep trying, just breeding her one time.  The only other thing I might suspect is a low-grade uterine infection, retained fluid in her uterus or scar tissue that is causing her not to hang on to the pregnancies.  You might try some antibiotics for 10 days right after your breed her and see what happens and go from there.
 
SUSAN OLSON
Alpaca Loco
Riverside, CA

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] fertility issues

 

I don't know, Heather, you've got a mystery girl on your hands.  If she doesn't get too upset by aborting I would keep trying, just breeding her one time.  The only other thing I might suspect is a low-grade uterine infection, retained fluid in her uterus or scar tissue that is causing her not to hang on to the pregnancies.  You might try some antibiotics for 10 days right after your breed her and see what happens and go from there.
 
SUSAN OLSON
Alpaca Loco
Riverside, CA

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: fertility issues

 

Dani,

That's interesting, I hadn't really known about that theory before. What I had read previously, in more than one article, only said that females usually drop two eggs. I think it still might not explain why this girl is implanting or "keeping" both embryos, where usually one is resorbed or not implanted at all. And, give her breeding dates, I can't think that I'm so unlucky to have hit that particular "wrong" sweet spot in all of 6 or so breedings I've done with her in the last two years. Can anyone beat those odds?

And while I do think it would be really great, and interesting, and a good project to undertake... I don't have an unlimited budget to throw at one non-producer. She is in otherwise fine health, and rather than figuring out why she won't produce a singleton any more, I have more positive areas to invest my resources... In today's market there are plenty of girls who can fill her shoes.

Not to mention that I live in the Eugene area and Pullman Washington is more than a day trip for me. So, a really study on her would be harrowing.

I do think I will try a few tricks next spring with her and another non-producer, but if either comes up open again or we have another twin abortion, they'll be non-breeders.

Heather

On Oct 21, 2009, at 8:56 PM, danimac2711 wrote:

Heather,

In a recent talk by Dr. Tibary, he mentioned that in his view, fraternal twins are "caused" by where the dam is in her cycle. Since one follicle is growing while the other is already mature/post mature, it is possible to catch the dam where both are available for fertilization.

So maybe it's worth trying to track her progesterone or do ultrasounds to see where she is in her follicle development prior to a breeding?

Cheers,

Dani

Dani McKenzie & Hovey Moore
Longbottom Meadows
Roy, WA
360-400-0348
http://www.longbottommeadows.com/

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[AlpacaTalk] Re: fertility issues

 

Heather,

In a recent talk by Dr. Tibary, he mentioned that in his view, fraternal twins are "caused" by where the dam is in her cycle. Since one follicle is growing while the other is already mature/post mature, it is possible to catch the dam where both are available for fertilization.

So maybe it's worth trying to track her progesterone or do ultrasounds to see where she is in her follicle development prior to a breeding?

Cheers,

Dani

Dani McKenzie & Hovey Moore
Longbottom Meadows
Roy, WA
360-400-0348
http://www.longbottommeadows.com/

--- In AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com, Heather Zeleny <alpacatalk@...> wrote:
>
> Ok. So I have this girl, who I got specifically to breed to my dark
> rose grey boy. She has now had 3 abortions in a row, of twins. Three
> times twins! All three have been aborted at the end of the 1st
> trimester. She barely noticed. This time it was 80 days or so, and I
> haven't had time to examine them yet, but the two little sacs are
> only maybe 2-3" across. The little embryo/fetus is smaller than that,
> obviously...
>
> No need for condolences, Really.
>
> It's just aggravating. I really love this girl for her bloodlines and
> that she's true black that throws true black when bred to white and
> fawn, every time. But I am about out of hope that she'll ever carry a
> singleton to term. What to do? I haven't contacted her previous
> owners yet. But there doesn't appear to be any evidence of infection
> or any problem conceiving. She just has twins, every time I've bred
> her! One of those times it was to a black boy, not my rose grey, so
> the sire can't be a probably cause.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Heather
>
> Heather Zeleny
> White Lotus Alpacas
> Oregon
>
> Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece
> http://www.whitelotusalpacas.com
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AlpacaTalk/join
>

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] fertility issues

 

Seems odd that in each case, both twins aborted.    Since our case of 7 month aborted twins in '07......my vet specifically looks for twins when ultrasounding.     We've since seen at least 6 twin pregnancies at approximately 30 days.     In each case we waited an additional 2-3 weeks, reultrasounded and only one of the twins remained to go on to full term.   We had such a case just last month in a client's girl.
 
In none of the cases were both twins lost.    My vet says it's actually very common to see twins and for one to absorb.
 
Your girl is really beating the odds.....not in a good way.
 
Carolyn Marquette,

PartyLite Gifts Online Catalogs, Specials and Ordering
PartyLite.com


The AlpacaRosa www.TheAlpacaRosa.com
2251 Sesame St
Mogadore, OH 44260
330-699-2182
330-618-9769
cell
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government........... Thomas Jefferson

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] fertility issues another situation

 

Yeah Carolyn that will be the next step.  I am trying to figure out when is the best time to u/s?  I don't want to do it too eary.   Glad to hear I am not the only one scratching my head with these critters. 
Robin

Richard and Robin Vasquez
R & R Ranch LLC
325B Denio Avenue
Gilroy,CA 95020
Phone: 408-842-5233/ Cell 408-710-0676/710-7911
 
       A Ranch of Distinction
www.LoveThemAlpacas.com
                          LTA
 


--- On Wed, 10/21/09, sesamedame@aol.com <sesamedame@aol.com> wrote:

From: sesamedame@aol.com <sesamedame@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] fertility issues another situation
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 3:56 PM

 
Some girls just don't know how they should act!     Ultrasound is the definitive answer to whether they are pregnant or not.    It's not just maidens that have this problem.     We have an experienced mom who's clueless and frustrating us at the moment.  :)
 
Carolyn Marquette,

PartyLite Gifts Online Catalogs, Specials and Ordering
PartyLite.com


The AlpacaRosa www.TheAlpacaRosa. com
2251 Sesame St
Mogadore, OH 44260
330-699-2182
330-618-9769
cell
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.. ......... Thomas Jefferson

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] fertility issues another situation

 

Yeah, we have nutty girls who do this. Usually it is open girls who mount other open ones, and usually only during a real breeding. 


But they definitely do their best to keep us confused!

Heather


On Oct 21, 2009, at 3:01 PM, Richard & Robin Vasquez wrote:


Let me thow another fertility question at you.  I have two females.  One older and one maiden.  They both have positive progesterone test  2 wks ago for pregnancy.  The older dam still runs from the male and she usually kushed fast so I think she is pregnant.  The young maiden does not cush really fast but follows the male around like a puppy dog and will rub his neck with hers if he is doing another breeding.   Sunday the older gal was mounted on top of the younger maiden as if breeding humming as loud as she could.    She still runs from the male and the younger gal still follows him around with sad puppy eyes.   What do you guys think?  Pregnant or not?    We will do another PG test and u/s.
Robin 

Richard and Robin Vasquez 
R & R Ranch LLC
325B Denio Avenue 
Gilroy,CA 95020
Phone: 408-842-5233/ Cell 408-710-0676/710-7911
 
       A Ranch of Distinction
www.LoveThemAlpacas.com
                          LTA
 

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] fertility issues

 

Ok, well, this girl came to my farm in December 2007. Maybe January 2008. She was bred to my rose grey boy May 31, 2008. Here's the calendar for her:

May 31, 2008 bred
June 23, 2008 bred
June 27, 2008 spit
July 2, 2008 spit
July 5, 2008, during spit testing another girl, she kushed, so we brought her intended back and they bred.
July 12, 2008 spit
July 26, 2008 spit
August 12, 2008 spit
October 9, 2008 aborted twins 96 days gestation

October 26, 2008 bred to a different sire
no spit testing.
January 15, 2009, aborted twins 82 days gestation

May 30, 2009 bred to my grey boy
June 1, 2009 spit
June 8, 2009 spit
June 11, 2009 spit
June 27, 2009 spit
July 2, 2009 spit
July 31, 2009 bred after resorption some time after July 2, 2009
August 12, 2009 spit
October 2, 2009 spit
October 8, spit
October 19, 2009 aborted twins 80 days gestation



So, as you can see, I am careful not to overbreed. Even in 2008, the second breeding was 23 days after the first, and the third breeding was almost 2 weeks after the previous one. At this point, I don't hold out much hope. 

Does anyone know how to ensure that only one embryo is implanted? She obviously ovulates and implants. I have considered progesterone supplementation, but the record for twins surviving is not good, and I'd rather not have a freemartin of they are mixed sex pair.

Heather

On Oct 21, 2009, at 2:54 PM, LunarStruck@aol.com wrote:

Heather - just a thought - could her twinning have something to do with being bred multiple times since they are induced ovulators?  If she were mine, I would breed her just once and see what happens.
 
SUSAN OLSON
Alpaca Loco
Riverside, CA

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