Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Saturday, January 03, 2009

Re: [AlpacaTalk] worming, etc was Re: Merry Morning

Well, mostly they're from anaphylactic shock. And when hearing about
it, people then cite improper storage as the cause, or expired, or
cross-contamination. So all in all, I personally prefer to give oral
meds if possible.

Sometimes, though, like with the Ivomec, the injections are
necessary, so you do what you have to do...

Heather

On Jan 3, 2009, at 4:56 PM, Wendy Edwards wrote:

> hi Heather - what kinds of problems have you heard about vitamin
> shots? You know me, I'm always looking for information
> Wendy
> DreamWeaver Alpacas
> BC
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] I'm in trouble again. Surprise!

Heather,

Sounds like some one in the group FWed your post to that group. Very kind
of em, huh?

Jim Guerin
Jimmini Farm
Yelm, WA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Heather Zeleny" <alpacatalk@westwindalpacas.com>
To: <AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 3:38 PM
Subject: [AlpacaTalk] I'm in trouble again. Surprise!

I received a phone call this morning, fortunately I was not available
to take the call. I then received an email with a few questions.

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Message posts are the opinion of individuals posting and are not necessarily endorsed or approved by Yahoo! or the moderator of this group. The purpose of this discussion group is to ensure that all points of view can be aired. It is the responsbilty of all individuals who post to treat others with respect and civility.
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Re: [AlpacaTalk] worming, etc was Re: Merry Morning

hi Heather - what kinds of problems have you heard about vitamin shots? You know me, I'm always looking for information
Wendy
DreamWeaver Alpacas
BC
----- Original Message -----
From: Heather Zeleny
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] worming, etc was Re: Merry Morning

I hope that some people who do have to do the M-worm injections will
speak up! From what I've read recently on the chat sites is that
Dectomax is not as effective as Ivomec. And actually, Dectomax isn't
really effective for 6 weeks, it doesn't really "take effect" for 2
weeks, but then after that it works for the following 4 weeks.

We do use Ivomec occasionally but thankfully we don't have M-worm here.

For vitamins, we prefer oral pastes to injectables. I've read too
many stories about major problems after vitamin shots.

I don't know the answer to your question about Safeguard pellets, we
haven't used them in years. When necessary, we use the drench.

Now to the fun discussion! The new cria! Definitely don't let her
keep running from you. I start halter training the crias as early as
possible, in fact I like to put the halter on the newborn as soon as
they're dry! We had a really skittish and feisty girl born last
summer (also black!), but after I started halter training her she
became much calmer and approachable.

Oh, finally the placenta. We used to worry about disposing of them,
but now we leave them and the turkey vultures come and take care of
them in no time. We haven't found that they attract coyotes or other
predators. I don't think they're here long enough! I'm not sure about
the size question. Of course when the amniotic fluid drains out, they
look smaller. :) And shrinking as they dry stands to reason.

Congrats again on your new black girl! So exciting!

Heather

On Jan 3, 2009, at 11:46 AM, houckj@aol.com wrote:

> <<<<Since she's already 4 days old, the umbilicus ought to be ok,
> especially with the goldenseal dip. I hate to admit, sometimes we
> don't get the dip done, and we haven't had problems because of
> that.>>>>
>
> Well that's a relief to hear! I didn't really do a dip with the
> goldenseal tho. It was a very diluted spray leftover from spraying one
> of my girl's ears. It happened to still be out there so I grabbed it.
> Most of it just rolled off as she was squirming around. But it has
> been
> covered up with the coat since evening 2, so I am hoping it is ok in
> there. What would it look like if it is not?
>
> <<<<I would reconsider your M-worm strategy, though. From what I've
> heard
> lately, Dectomax isn't considered as effective as Ivomec, and it
> should be administered every month without fail. Safeguard is not
> effective against M-worm at all, it's only for intestinal
> parasites.>>>>
>
> Hmmmm. That is totally different from what Dr Evans says in his
> manual.
> He says that Ivermec only is good for 4 wks (and stings), but Decto
> is good for 6wks and doesn't sting???? I also recall Marty McGee
> saying
> that Ivermec stings when I was at one of her clinics. My feed store is
> ordering Dectomax for me first thing Mon AM (there have been no orders
> over the holidays). The smallest bottle I can get is 100ml which will
> last me 1-2 yrs for my small herd (depending on whether I just give in
> the winter or year round. According to Doc Evans Nov-Feb is the
> highest
> risk time so that is what I ahve been trying to focus on, but here
> it is
> Jan already, sigh. And with all the rain I am concerned the snail
> population is likely way up, and there have been a lot of deer around
> their pastures this fall, more so than usual.....in my blueberry
> field:-(. I am counting on those ducks and guineas to take care of the
> snails, but am not comfortable totally relying on that. I am going to
> get start with the injections as soon as I can get the supplies in. I
> need more needles as well and have to go back and look up that long
> conversation we had about sizes so I can purchase when I go to pick up
> the Dectomax. I wonder if Ivermec is less expensive? That would be a
> consideration for me. I remember Marty said if using Ivermec to use a
> different syringe to draw up (and leave it in the bottle) and a fresh
> one to inject so the liquid won't be on the tip of the needle and
> cause
> that stinging as soon as the needle pierces the skin. I actually do
> that anyway with the Dectomax.
>
> And yeh, I know that Safeguard is only for intestinal parasites. I
> guess I was just commenting that I need to do both and the baby has no
> residual protection as mama hasn't rec'd either. I am planning to
> switch over to granules but still haven't had time to sit down and
> figure out the dosage, and how much to purchase. I assume you dose the
> same as the paste? At 5 times the horse dosage? and for 5 days? Do
> they eat it ok mixed in with their food? I feed mine separately so I
> would know noone is eating someone elses. I am just concerned that my
> picky eaters might turn up their noses if they can taste the granules?
>
> Can some of you that use the Safeguard granules tell me what dosage
> you
> use - how much for how long? My feed store has it in bulk for cattle -
> 22.7 mg per # and it is $1.65 per#. So I need to know how many #s to
> buy. It is used at a rate of 1# per 1000#cattle, according to the feed
> store.
>
> Also, I will be pricing the Ivermec vs Dectomax first thing Mon AM.
> Would the Ivermec be given at the same dosage as the Dectomax? Dect is
> given at 1CC per 50-70#. I don't have a scale to get an accurate wt,
> just a tape. Mine guys all range in the low 100#s - like 105# to 140#
> the last time I measured them. So I generally just give about 2cc to
> them all every 6 wks; a tad more to the heaviest one and a tad less to
> the smallest one. I think tho given how late a start I am getting this
> winter, I will work to dose them once a month for the rest of the
> winter
> anyway.
>
> <<<<So exciting to have a new cria! Who do you think the sire is,
> then?
> Oooo, that reminds me, I have to get my boy registered soon!
>
> Best wishes to you, and congratulations!
> Heather>>>>
>
> Thanks Heather! It really is exciting - especially to have one *I*
> don't have to feed and hopefully won't have to bury. And to have a
> GIRL
> WOOHOO! I only have the one stud, so he has to be the daddy LOL. He
> is quite small. I have had him for about 3 or 4 yrs but he is fairly
> shy and retiring. The girls have been dominating him all along. I
> guess he finally figured out how to woo this girl :-).....but they
> never
> let on and I didn't have a clue. I have seen him chase her around a
> good bit, but have never seen her stop running from him. I have never
> ever seen him even look at my Allie girl. She is the head of the herd,
> and my first alpaca, since my previous stud died 2 yrs ago. He is just
> SO fascinated with this baby. It is like he can't believe he actually
> did it! He stays right with mama and baby nearly all the time. I never
> saw my other stud do this.
>
> Warmly, Janice
> PS Since I have never had a baby be so fearful of humans before
> what is
> the recommendation? Spend more hands on time - or less? I am torn
> between wanting one that is easier to handle than the ones I bought as
> adults and clearly were never handled vs wanting to respect their
> space
> and desire to be left alone. I am wondering if the skittishness is
> because there were no humans around for the first several hours of her
> life? Usually I am right there, handling the baby immediately as I
> usually have to stimulate and rub down with a towel to dry off and get
> off the rest of the placenta adhering to various parts. This was
> clean,
> dry and up and running by the time she was discovered. And the
> placenta
> was much smaller than I am used to seeing. Do they shrink up as the
> hours go by? Oh, also what do you all do with your placentas? Being an
> organic gardener my first thought was to bury it in the garden. But
> after the first baby years ago my vet said not to do that, that there
> was no way to bury it deep enough to not attract coyotes; he also said
> to get it out of the pasture asap for the same reason. So I have just
> been bagging and putting in the truck (covered) to take to the dump
> with
> the rest of my trash. Seems like such a waste?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] RE: Merry Morning

hi Janice - yes i think you're probably right about the geographic area and the vitamin A & D shots - i forget that some folks actually see the sun during the winter - we see so little of it that we automatically give the vitamin shots

all the best
Wendy
BC
----- Original Message -----
From: houckj@aol.com
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 11:12 AM
Subject: [AlpacaTalk] RE: Merry Morning

Congratulations Janice - what a great way to start the new year.
In addition to dipping the umbilicus, i'm sure you know to watch for the
meconium being passed. We give a vitamin A & D shot to our babies in the
winter.

best of luck - i hope 2009 is the year it all turns around for you.
Wendy
DreamWeaver Alpacas
BC

Thanks Wendy! Because of not knowing exactly when this baby was born
and then upon discovering the delightful surprise having to come back in
to see clients and not finishing up with them until after dark I was not
able to watch fro the meconium. And with the rain and mud there is no
way I would have ever been able to find by the 2nd day. She seemed to
be doing well so I tried not to worry about it too much, tho is was on
my mind. I am assuming now at day 5 and she appears to be thriving that
that is not a concern. I have seen her pee, but have not actually seen
her poop, nor have I found any tiny paca beans. But again with all the
rain and mud I am not surprised that I can't find any in the pasture. I
am trying not to worry, but would feel greatly relieved to actually see
her poop. I want to get her and weight her today. She is very skittish
and very avoidant of human approaching. I don't want to chase her down
and capture her. I did that yesterday because I wanted to look at her
umbilicus and also wanted to check her coat and make sure she was not
wet underneath. I could not see the umbilicus as it is covered by the
coat. And she was struggling so much I could barely slip my hand under
the coat to make sure she was warm and dry under there - she was. The
rain has continued, but I am leaving mama and Merry out now as it is not
going below freezing at night. So they are wet but content being with
the others and are mostly staying put under the hay shed while it is
raining. I haven't weighed her since day 2, so I am anxious to do that,
but again don't want to force myself on her and have her perhaps develop
an even stronger dislike of human hands. This is different, my other
babies have not run nor shied away from human hands; I had to handle
them so much with the bottle feeding etc I guess they just didn't mind,
but even from the very beginning they didn't run away (maybe just too
weak) and this one has.

Don't know anything about A&D shots, but with her skittishness around
humans I am not anxious to stick her with anything to upset her even
more about these dastardly 2 leggeds. I am wondering if you do this
because you are so far north? I am in the supposedly sunny south, tho
we haven't seen much of that sun this winter.

And yep, I do believe 09 is the year things will turn around for me. In
fact I think they already have :-).

Warmly, Janice

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[AlpacaTalk] I'm in trouble again. Surprise!

I received a phone call this morning, fortunately I was not available
to take the call. I then received an email with a few questions.

> Hi Heather,
> I received your post to alpacasite and I wanted to discuss some of
> the questions you raise. Please give me a call at your earliest
> convenience my home number is xxx-xxx-xxxx. Some of the points I
> would like to discuss are:
> · Difference between livestock breed associations and pet
> show systems
> · Why AOBA has a for profit subsidiary
> · Please explain to me what you mean by, "But somehow, I
> just don't believe all of what "They" from AOBA tell us, because of
> so much hanky panky and the dangerous ethical environment" there..."
> · How AOBA communicates with eBlasts, some of the
> challenges we face with electronic communication and where they are
> stored for member use.
> · Question, are you a member of AOBA I do not find you
> listed in the 2008 directory?

Hmm. Well first of all, I never post on alpacasite, and almost never
read the thing.

And we've been over these issues before. But many of us still don't
buy the narratives we're fed. And I refuse to be hassled on the
telephone, put on the spot, and pressured by anyone.

Funny, AOBA is somehow vastly different than AKC. Yet AOBA can also
not be compared to say, the Cattlemen's Assn., which I suggested that
the AOBA membership dues schedule should emulate. Somehow, that
parallel isn't appropriate, either. They can say all day long this is
not the same as that and the other. Is AKC just a dog show system? I
don't think so.

Why AOBA has a for profit subsidiary. Yes, we all know what we've
been told. But as I said, many of us do not believe the story,
because many other marketing orgs have publications that are not
required to be run by a for-profit.

What do I mean by that statement. Well, see above. And the "Dangerous
Ethical Environment" statement was made by an AOBA board member who
suddenly resigned a few months ago. Shocked many of us, and we're
left wondering what exactly _really_ happened. One board member
resigned last summer, stating other responsibilities as the reason,
one board member was forced to resign, at least that's how it looks
to a lot of us, and then this board member suddenly and mysteriously
resigns. I dunno, looks pretty toxic to me.

Um, let's see. eBlasts. Ok.

And finally, am I a member of AOBA? Well, I did pay my dies in 2008,
after the cutoff for inclusion in the print directory. I'm sure there
were lots of people who did the same. And no, I have not renewed for
2009 yet. It's been a tough year.


I don't approve of nor appreciate strong-arm tactics to keep the
membership under control, or the chilling effect of being singled out
and "educated". If "They" want us to know what is going on, make it
public and transparent! Tell everyone!

Anyway, that's my story.
Heather


And I'll attach a copy of most of a very nice alpaca politics post by
my good friend John Merrell, I truncated it a little bit. Yes, John
and I sometimes agree, sometimes not. But when I agree with him, I
really agree! But this speaks to that statement of mine regarding the
"hanky panky". And, there's lots of stuff he didn't even mention,
like a former AOBA board pres who was forced to resign and barred
from ever holding office again due to his diversion of leads lists
for his own use. Hmm.

> Do Boards make rather surprising announcements sometimes without
> seeking input from the general membership? I can think of a few...
>
> * Dumping ALSA and creating a new AOBA show division
> * Dumping UC Davis and taking DNA testing in house
> * Dumping ILA and taking registry maintenance in house (followed by
> two years of major disorganization)
> * Dumping the Hobarts and hiring a new contractor to administer AOBA
> * Dumping the new contractor and taking AOBA administration in house
> * Moving Corporate Headquarters to a building owned by a sitting
> Director
> * The creation of a new, for profit subsidiary of AOBA
> * Moving the National Conference from Kentucky to Ohio
> * Seeking merger of ARI and AOBA
> * Significant changes to show rules, almost on an annual basis
>
> Now, I am getting old and my memory is not what it once was. Perhaps
> you could remind me of your or Jerry's involvement in any of the
> above events? I can't quite keep track of who was sitting on which
> Board of Directors when anymore.
>
> Do committees dissolve or get disbanded? It would appear that they
> do on occasion.
>
> * AOBA education committee (2008)
> * AOBA Show Committee (2003)
>
> Again, my memory just isn't what it once was. Perhaps you could
> remind us all who sat on the AOBA Board of Directors during those
> times?
>
> Is it not the primary purposes of a Board of Directors to set policy
> and strategic direction of the organization?
>
> Let's look at the list sent out by the AOBA Board, without drama:
>
> Objective #1: Develop and promote national and regional qualification
> show system based on commercial trades.
> Objective #2: Create and promote a sustainable health management
> model.
> Objective #3: Create national end production marketing program
> similar to
> "certified angus beef."
> Objective #4: To improve member benefits (increase "no additional
> charge"
> benefits to membership
> Objective #5: Create and promote a sustainable end products production
> model
>
> Now, that looks to me like a Breed Association (as opposed to a
> Marketing Group). While the devil is in the details, the framework
> is certainly covered there.
>
> 1. Shows
> 2. Breed Health
> 3. Product Certification/Branding
> 4. Member Benefits
> 5. Production Models
>
> The thing "missing" is a specific item for marketing of live animals.
>
> Let's go through that list in a bit more detail
>
> 1. Shows - The AOBA memberhip has complained for a long, long time
> about shows. SLC is NOT a west coast venue. Cost are too high. The
> National Show is too big, too far away, cost prohibitive, etc. etc.
> Looking at this with an open mind, it would appear that the Board may
> be responding to years of complaints by looking at new ideas for
> addressing member concerns. A qualifying system could be as simple
> as "The animal must have placed in a local or regional show," which
> would not be an undue burden on most owners - particularly if costs
> were brought down. Further, a smaller national show might well be
> less expensive, more accessible, and carry greater prestige.
> 2. Health - it was only a year ago that there was great wailing and
> gnashing of teeth about AOBA's failure to respond to the "snots".
> Again, perhaps the Board is listening to the concerns of the
> membership, and is committing to dedicating Association resources
> tohealth issues?
> 3. Product Marketing/Certification - A large number of owners have
> been seeking the development of a North American fiber industry for a
> long time. Perhaps the Board is listening, and looking at ways to
> actively market North American produced fiber
> 4. Improved Member Benefits - This has been an ongoing issue for
> almost a decade, with many, many members complaining about the lack
> of benefits. Member retention has been a major problem over the past
> few years. The subject has been beat to death on any number of chat-
> lines. Well, maybe not to death, since there is a thread on this
> subject over on the AlpacaNation forums even as I write these words.
> Perhaps the Board is listening to the membership, and beginning to
> address these concerns.
> 5. End Product Production Model - Again, many have been clamoring for
> focus to be placed on a fiber industry. Perhaps the Board is
> listening, and committing to dedicate Association resources to the
> development of a sustainable model fir such an industry.
>
> An open mind might conclude that there is nothing to be upset about.
> The list contains nothing more than broad statements about general
> areas needing to be addressed.
>
> It is a framework, one to be filled in over time.
>
> I would hope that as the details are filled in that there is member
> involvement in that process - because I'll tell you, I have a lot of
> thoughts about the whole fiber industry/end product subjects,
> thoughts based on the hard won knowledge gained of experience in
> trying to piece together a workable model involving thousands of
> small scale producers spread across most of the North American
> continent.
>
> What I don's see is the sky falling.
>
> What I do see is a potential threat to the AOBA Marketing (only)
> Machine that has existed for the past several years - a model that
> provides far more benefit to large breeders than small. Yes, in this
> case it is a large/small paradigm, since the large breeder stands to
> get a much better return on the investment of a much smaller
> percentage of gross income. In other words, a small breeder getting
> perhaps $30k in annual sales might spend as much as 20% of sales on
> marketing (assuming a $5k investment to be a Platinum Sponsor,
> Marketing Program, Show Division member) where a large breeder
> grossing $1 million would be spending 1/2 of 1% of gross income for
> the exact same services. This is the basic inequity that has led to
> the raging success of such services as AlpacaNation.
>
> And, it is an inequity that will have immediate and dramatic effects
> on the business models of any number of large(r) breeders should AOBA
> choose to shift resources away from marketing and into traditional
> Breed Association activities. Large breeders will simply no longer
> be subsidized by small breeders.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [AlpacaTalk] books for beginners?

Here was something interesting:
Old MacDonald Wouldn't Recognize This Farm
Bitten by Livestock Market, Owners Test Other Moneymaking Ideas

Launch a photogallery from the Website http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/02/AR2009010202260.html
By Jenna Johnson
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, January 3, 2009; B01
Jim Moore has slowly sold off the animals that once made up his St. Mary's County farm. First went nearly all of his 30 hogs. Then, late last year, he got rid of 17 of his 30 cows. In their place are more than two dozen long-haired alpacas, reminders that difficult times have forced him and other livestock producers to adapt.
The alpacas eat less than traditional farm animals, and their cashmere-like wool can be harvested without hauling them to a slaughterhouse. Moore escorts them to dog-show-like conventions, where the quality of their wool is judged.
"Here I am, a big, burly farm boy, in the show ring with an alpaca," Moore said. "I get razzed pretty good by my friends."
The economy and other factors have forced many livestock producers to virtually halt or dramatically refashion their operations. Nearly all of the few dozen producers in Southern Maryland have cut the number of animals they raise by at least half or gotten rid of their animals altogether, agricultural officials said.
Last year, feed prices shot up, mostly because of new demand for corn and soybeans to produce ethanol. Record-high gas prices during the summer made a trip to a slaughterhouse more expensive. Drought drove up the price of hay and made it scarce until late summer.
And after livestock producers invested more than usual in raising their animals, they were met with lower-than-usual prices at market. Not wanting to lose any more money, many turned their attention to other sources of income: greenhouse-grown vegetables, grain, specialty animals such as alpacas, agri-tourism or jobs off the farm.
"It's economics 101," said Mike Russell, a St. Mary's soil conservation engineer who works closely with farmers and livestock producers. "They have no other choice. They weren't making any money. They are not out of the business completely, but as the economy changes, they are cutting back."
It could be a while before the cost of raising animals evens out with the income that can be made by selling them. Adding to the problem: The recession has pushed many people to cut back on steak dinners, said Mike Brannon, director of operations at Roseda Beef, based north of Baltimore. Although Roseda did not cut back on production last year, the farm is considering doing so in 2009.
"Everyone wants bargains right now," Brannon said. "Anytime you see something agricultural on sale, someone somewhere is losing money. And it's usually the farmer."
In recent years, demand for locally raised meat has grown, driven by meat contamination scares, the trendiness of buying local and ethnic groups in search of mutton and goat meat.
"Plus, there's the taste," said Donna Sasscer, St. Mary's agriculture and seafood development manager. "Once you've tasted local meat, you can taste the difference."
But the logistics and expenses involved in raising animals for slaughter in Southern Maryland are daunting. Federal regulations require any meat that is to be sold to be processed in a facility certified by the U.S. Department of Agriculture. Maryland's few USDA-approved slaughterhouses are in the northern part of the state, and some producers find it easier to travel to Pennsylvania or Virginia.
Producers who don't sell their meat to a wholesaler at the processing plant must transport it back to their farm and store it until they can sell it to a grocery store, restaurant or other buyer.
Farmers sometimes attempt to sell an entire live animal directly to the end consumer. The buyer is then responsible for having the animal slaughtered and processed for personal use, losing the need for USDA inspection and increasing the number of available slaughterhouses.
But, not surprisingly, finding a buyer interested in purchasing an entire cow -- or a group of friends willing to purchase one together -- is difficult.
"If a cow was just New York strips, we would have no problem," said Brannon, whose company sells cuts to grocery stores, restaurants and individuals. "Today's consumer wants to buy what they want to buy when they want to buy it."
For years, the Southern Maryland Agricultural Development Commission has advocated for the creation of a USDA-certified processing plant in Southern Maryland, perhaps even a mobile one that could travel from farm to farm. But it has yet to find funding or adequate support for the project.
The commission had been slated to receive grant money from the Maryland Cigarette Restitution Fund Program -- settlement money from tobacco companies -- to help livestock producers with smaller aspects of their operations, such as renting a refrigerator truck to haul meat. But that money was cut late last year, and the grants were canceled, said Christine L. Bergmark, the commission's director.
Moore, the Bushwood resident now raising alpacas, said farmers have to adapt to the market and select crops or animals that can make their farms profitable.
Moore also drives a dump truck and does excavation work, but he hopes that someday he and his wife can cut back on their jobs off the farm and live off money made selling alpaca fiber and baby alpacas to other farmers. They also hope to attract more tourists and school groups to their farm, an effort they began years ago.
"We struggle every day to keep this farm going," he said. "I couldn't live on the [income from the] farm alone. Would be nice, but can't. Not yet."

Gay & Maryann
Tri-Valley Alpacas, Inc.
Brookville, OH

----- Original Message -----
From: Heather Zeleny
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] books for beginners?

Hi Caryn, and welcome!

I recommend:
The Alpaca Field Manual by Dr. Norm Evans
The Alpaca Book by Eric Hoffman and Dr. Murray Fowler
Camelidynamics by Marty McGee Bennet

Llamas and alpacas are very similar, obviously, so info for one will
generally be correct for the other.

Heather

Heather Zeleny
White Lotus Alpacas
Creswell, OR

541.895.0964

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece
http://www.whitelotusalpacas.com
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AlpacaTalk/join

On Jan 3, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Caryn Law wrote:

> Hello!
>
> I've been lurking on this list for about a year as I'm preparing
> myself to
> hopefully be an alpaca owner sometime this year. In preparation
> I've been
> looking for books geared for beginners on owning alpacas or a small-
> scale
> alpaca farm (we thought we'd plan on buying 2-3 to start with and then
> expand up to 6-8 as we get more comfortable and experienced). I'm
> looking at
> owning them for fiber, not for breeding.
>
> Can anyone recommend any books I should be reading? I have no animal
> husbandry experience so I need all the help I can get before I get
> into this
> so that I do it right. I see a lot of books on managing llamas but
> surprisingly few on alpacas.
>
> Thanks!
> - Caryn Law
> Issaquah, WA
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] worming, etc was Re: Merry Morning

I hope that some people who do have to do the M-worm injections will
speak up! From what I've read recently on the chat sites is that
Dectomax is not as effective as Ivomec. And actually, Dectomax isn't
really effective for 6 weeks, it doesn't really "take effect" for 2
weeks, but then after that it works for the following 4 weeks.

We do use Ivomec occasionally but thankfully we don't have M-worm here.

For vitamins, we prefer oral pastes to injectables. I've read too
many stories about major problems after vitamin shots.

I don't know the answer to your question about Safeguard pellets, we
haven't used them in years. When necessary, we use the drench.

Now to the fun discussion! The new cria! Definitely don't let her
keep running from you. I start halter training the crias as early as
possible, in fact I like to put the halter on the newborn as soon as
they're dry! We had a really skittish and feisty girl born last
summer (also black!), but after I started halter training her she
became much calmer and approachable.

Oh, finally the placenta. We used to worry about disposing of them,
but now we leave them and the turkey vultures come and take care of
them in no time. We haven't found that they attract coyotes or other
predators. I don't think they're here long enough! I'm not sure about
the size question. Of course when the amniotic fluid drains out, they
look smaller. :) And shrinking as they dry stands to reason.

Congrats again on your new black girl! So exciting!

Heather

On Jan 3, 2009, at 11:46 AM, houckj@aol.com wrote:

> <<<<Since she's already 4 days old, the umbilicus ought to be ok,
> especially with the goldenseal dip. I hate to admit, sometimes we
> don't get the dip done, and we haven't had problems because of
> that.>>>>
>
> Well that's a relief to hear! I didn't really do a dip with the
> goldenseal tho. It was a very diluted spray leftover from spraying one
> of my girl's ears. It happened to still be out there so I grabbed it.
> Most of it just rolled off as she was squirming around. But it has
> been
> covered up with the coat since evening 2, so I am hoping it is ok in
> there. What would it look like if it is not?
>
> <<<<I would reconsider your M-worm strategy, though. From what I've
> heard
> lately, Dectomax isn't considered as effective as Ivomec, and it
> should be administered every month without fail. Safeguard is not
> effective against M-worm at all, it's only for intestinal
> parasites.>>>>
>
> Hmmmm. That is totally different from what Dr Evans says in his
> manual.
> He says that Ivermec only is good for 4 wks (and stings), but Decto
> is good for 6wks and doesn't sting???? I also recall Marty McGee
> saying
> that Ivermec stings when I was at one of her clinics. My feed store is
> ordering Dectomax for me first thing Mon AM (there have been no orders
> over the holidays). The smallest bottle I can get is 100ml which will
> last me 1-2 yrs for my small herd (depending on whether I just give in
> the winter or year round. According to Doc Evans Nov-Feb is the
> highest
> risk time so that is what I ahve been trying to focus on, but here
> it is
> Jan already, sigh. And with all the rain I am concerned the snail
> population is likely way up, and there have been a lot of deer around
> their pastures this fall, more so than usual.....in my blueberry
> field:-(. I am counting on those ducks and guineas to take care of the
> snails, but am not comfortable totally relying on that. I am going to
> get start with the injections as soon as I can get the supplies in. I
> need more needles as well and have to go back and look up that long
> conversation we had about sizes so I can purchase when I go to pick up
> the Dectomax. I wonder if Ivermec is less expensive? That would be a
> consideration for me. I remember Marty said if using Ivermec to use a
> different syringe to draw up (and leave it in the bottle) and a fresh
> one to inject so the liquid won't be on the tip of the needle and
> cause
> that stinging as soon as the needle pierces the skin. I actually do
> that anyway with the Dectomax.
>
> And yeh, I know that Safeguard is only for intestinal parasites. I
> guess I was just commenting that I need to do both and the baby has no
> residual protection as mama hasn't rec'd either. I am planning to
> switch over to granules but still haven't had time to sit down and
> figure out the dosage, and how much to purchase. I assume you dose the
> same as the paste? At 5 times the horse dosage? and for 5 days? Do
> they eat it ok mixed in with their food? I feed mine separately so I
> would know noone is eating someone elses. I am just concerned that my
> picky eaters might turn up their noses if they can taste the granules?
>
> Can some of you that use the Safeguard granules tell me what dosage
> you
> use - how much for how long? My feed store has it in bulk for cattle -
> 22.7 mg per # and it is $1.65 per#. So I need to know how many #s to
> buy. It is used at a rate of 1# per 1000#cattle, according to the feed
> store.
>
> Also, I will be pricing the Ivermec vs Dectomax first thing Mon AM.
> Would the Ivermec be given at the same dosage as the Dectomax? Dect is
> given at 1CC per 50-70#. I don't have a scale to get an accurate wt,
> just a tape. Mine guys all range in the low 100#s - like 105# to 140#
> the last time I measured them. So I generally just give about 2cc to
> them all every 6 wks; a tad more to the heaviest one and a tad less to
> the smallest one. I think tho given how late a start I am getting this
> winter, I will work to dose them once a month for the rest of the
> winter
> anyway.
>
> <<<<So exciting to have a new cria! Who do you think the sire is,
> then?
> Oooo, that reminds me, I have to get my boy registered soon!
>
> Best wishes to you, and congratulations!
> Heather>>>>
>
> Thanks Heather! It really is exciting - especially to have one *I*
> don't have to feed and hopefully won't have to bury. And to have a
> GIRL
> WOOHOO! I only have the one stud, so he has to be the daddy LOL. He
> is quite small. I have had him for about 3 or 4 yrs but he is fairly
> shy and retiring. The girls have been dominating him all along. I
> guess he finally figured out how to woo this girl :-).....but they
> never
> let on and I didn't have a clue. I have seen him chase her around a
> good bit, but have never seen her stop running from him. I have never
> ever seen him even look at my Allie girl. She is the head of the herd,
> and my first alpaca, since my previous stud died 2 yrs ago. He is just
> SO fascinated with this baby. It is like he can't believe he actually
> did it! He stays right with mama and baby nearly all the time. I never
> saw my other stud do this.
>
> Warmly, Janice
> PS Since I have never had a baby be so fearful of humans before
> what is
> the recommendation? Spend more hands on time - or less? I am torn
> between wanting one that is easier to handle than the ones I bought as
> adults and clearly were never handled vs wanting to respect their
> space
> and desire to be left alone. I am wondering if the skittishness is
> because there were no humans around for the first several hours of her
> life? Usually I am right there, handling the baby immediately as I
> usually have to stimulate and rub down with a towel to dry off and get
> off the rest of the placenta adhering to various parts. This was
> clean,
> dry and up and running by the time she was discovered. And the
> placenta
> was much smaller than I am used to seeing. Do they shrink up as the
> hours go by? Oh, also what do you all do with your placentas? Being an
> organic gardener my first thought was to bury it in the garden. But
> after the first baby years ago my vet said not to do that, that there
> was no way to bury it deep enough to not attract coyotes; he also said
> to get it out of the pasture asap for the same reason. So I have just
> been bagging and putting in the truck (covered) to take to the dump
> with
> the rest of my trash. Seems like such a waste?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[AlpacaTalk] worming, etc was Re: Merry Morning

<<<<Since she's already 4 days old, the umbilicus ought to be ok,
especially with the goldenseal dip. I hate to admit, sometimes we
don't get the dip done, and we haven't had problems because of that.>>>>

Well that's a relief to hear! I didn't really do a dip with the
goldenseal tho. It was a very diluted spray leftover from spraying one
of my girl's ears. It happened to still be out there so I grabbed it.
Most of it just rolled off as she was squirming around. But it has been
covered up with the coat since evening 2, so I am hoping it is ok in
there. What would it look like if it is not?

<<<<I would reconsider your M-worm strategy, though. From what I've heard
lately, Dectomax isn't considered as effective as Ivomec, and it
should be administered every month without fail. Safeguard is not
effective against M-worm at all, it's only for intestinal parasites.>>>>

Hmmmm. That is totally different from what Dr Evans says in his manual.
He says that Ivermec only is good for 4 wks (and stings), but Decto
is good for 6wks and doesn't sting???? I also recall Marty McGee saying
that Ivermec stings when I was at one of her clinics. My feed store is
ordering Dectomax for me first thing Mon AM (there have been no orders
over the holidays). The smallest bottle I can get is 100ml which will
last me 1-2 yrs for my small herd (depending on whether I just give in
the winter or year round. According to Doc Evans Nov-Feb is the highest
risk time so that is what I ahve been trying to focus on, but here it is
Jan already, sigh. And with all the rain I am concerned the snail
population is likely way up, and there have been a lot of deer around
their pastures this fall, more so than usual.....in my blueberry
field:-(. I am counting on those ducks and guineas to take care of the
snails, but am not comfortable totally relying on that. I am going to
get start with the injections as soon as I can get the supplies in. I
need more needles as well and have to go back and look up that long
conversation we had about sizes so I can purchase when I go to pick up
the Dectomax. I wonder if Ivermec is less expensive? That would be a
consideration for me. I remember Marty said if using Ivermec to use a
different syringe to draw up (and leave it in the bottle) and a fresh
one to inject so the liquid won't be on the tip of the needle and cause
that stinging as soon as the needle pierces the skin. I actually do
that anyway with the Dectomax.

And yeh, I know that Safeguard is only for intestinal parasites. I
guess I was just commenting that I need to do both and the baby has no
residual protection as mama hasn't rec'd either. I am planning to
switch over to granules but still haven't had time to sit down and
figure out the dosage, and how much to purchase. I assume you dose the
same as the paste? At 5 times the horse dosage? and for 5 days? Do
they eat it ok mixed in with their food? I feed mine separately so I
would know noone is eating someone elses. I am just concerned that my
picky eaters might turn up their noses if they can taste the granules?

Can some of you that use the Safeguard granules tell me what dosage you
use - how much for how long? My feed store has it in bulk for cattle -
22.7 mg per # and it is $1.65 per#. So I need to know how many #s to
buy. It is used at a rate of 1# per 1000#cattle, according to the feed
store.

Also, I will be pricing the Ivermec vs Dectomax first thing Mon AM.
Would the Ivermec be given at the same dosage as the Dectomax? Dect is
given at 1CC per 50-70#. I don't have a scale to get an accurate wt,
just a tape. Mine guys all range in the low 100#s - like 105# to 140#
the last time I measured them. So I generally just give about 2cc to
them all every 6 wks; a tad more to the heaviest one and a tad less to
the smallest one. I think tho given how late a start I am getting this
winter, I will work to dose them once a month for the rest of the winter
anyway.

<<<<So exciting to have a new cria! Who do you think the sire is, then?
Oooo, that reminds me, I have to get my boy registered soon!

Best wishes to you, and congratulations!
Heather>>>>

Thanks Heather! It really is exciting - especially to have one *I*
don't have to feed and hopefully won't have to bury. And to have a GIRL
WOOHOO! I only have the one stud, so he has to be the daddy LOL. He
is quite small. I have had him for about 3 or 4 yrs but he is fairly
shy and retiring. The girls have been dominating him all along. I
guess he finally figured out how to woo this girl :-).....but they never
let on and I didn't have a clue. I have seen him chase her around a
good bit, but have never seen her stop running from him. I have never
ever seen him even look at my Allie girl. She is the head of the herd,
and my first alpaca, since my previous stud died 2 yrs ago. He is just
SO fascinated with this baby. It is like he can't believe he actually
did it! He stays right with mama and baby nearly all the time. I never
saw my other stud do this.

Warmly, Janice
PS Since I have never had a baby be so fearful of humans before what is
the recommendation? Spend more hands on time - or less? I am torn
between wanting one that is easier to handle than the ones I bought as
adults and clearly were never handled vs wanting to respect their space
and desire to be left alone. I am wondering if the skittishness is
because there were no humans around for the first several hours of her
life? Usually I am right there, handling the baby immediately as I
usually have to stimulate and rub down with a towel to dry off and get
off the rest of the placenta adhering to various parts. This was clean,
dry and up and running by the time she was discovered. And the placenta
was much smaller than I am used to seeing. Do they shrink up as the
hours go by? Oh, also what do you all do with your placentas? Being an
organic gardener my first thought was to bury it in the garden. But
after the first baby years ago my vet said not to do that, that there
was no way to bury it deep enough to not attract coyotes; he also said
to get it out of the pasture asap for the same reason. So I have just
been bagging and putting in the truck (covered) to take to the dump with
the rest of my trash. Seems like such a waste?

__._,_.___
Message posts are the opinion of individuals posting and are not necessarily endorsed or approved by Yahoo! or the moderator of this group. The purpose of this discussion group is to ensure that all points of view can be aired. It is the responsbilty of all individuals who post to treat others with respect and civility.
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