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Friday, March 26, 2010

Re: [AlpacaTalk] llama colustrum

 

Good point, Wendy!  Where do you get your Wombaroo?
 
SUSAN OLSON
Alpaca Loco
Riverside, CA
http://www.openherd.com/FarmPage.aspx?Farm=433

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] what to use?: BSE

 

I agree, Jim - we all do what we can and we do the best we can for our animals.  I'm sorry you had to deal with the death of any alpaca, much less a new mother.  I can't even imagine.  However, we all need to keep an open mind about these things and read as much as we can on the subject before feeding it again - prions are a very, very scary thing.
 
SUSAN OLSON
Alpaca Loco
Riverside, CA
http://www.openherd.com/FarmPage.aspx?Farm=433

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] what to use?: BSE

 

Jody - how many people do you know that have had or have relatives that have had Alzheimer's disease?  This disease is shown to be caused by prions, found in animal products which causes Mad Cow Disease and many other problems.  We are not talking about milk, we are talking about the animal products (chopped up cows, pigs, etc.) in milk replacer which is not a natural ingredient.  If you care about your family and your animals, read up on this seriously without taking offense at it - there is a lot of research behind it and it really is scary enough to make everyone aware.
 
SUSAN OLSON
Alpaca Loco
Riverside, CA
http://www.openherd.com/FarmPage.aspx?Farm=433

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] what to use?: BSE

 

I can only imagine the quantities of lard and whey in an 8 pound bag of the replacer is massive.
 
If I would have had a choice, I would have preferred to not have had to use anything.  My choice would have been that Brandies mom had not died.  But, she did die.  I have no regrets for having used the replacer.
 
We will each do as we see best for our animals.
 
Jim Guerin
Jimmini Farm
Yelm, WA
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] what to use?: BSE

 

I still don't think I'd want to feed lard or whey to alpacas.  Its bad enough we don't have an ALPACA milk replacer made from alpaca milk and have to feed them cow's milk.
 
SUSAN
Alpaca Loco
Riverside, CA 
 
 
In a message dated 3/26/2010 11:27:32 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jgyelwa@ywave.com writes:
I took the time to call the company that manufactures the Sav-a-calf products.  I told the lady that there seems to be a mind set that mad cow disease can be gotten from using their products. 
 
She told me that mad cow disease does not come from pork fat.  The same product that you can buy in the store in a can to make pies: it is the edible grade lard.
 
The whey product is a by-product of cows milk from making cheese.
 
Jim Guerin
Jimmini Farm
Yelm, WA

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] what to use?: BSE

 

Jody,


I'm pretty sure everyone knows that milk and milk products are "animal" products. The main issue here is rendered products from slaughtered animals, which is a major ingredient in that particular milk replacer product, and maybe all of them. 

I brought up the question of whether milk products are safe, because I'm not sure if that's been studied. And I do have questions in my mind as to whether dairy products are really free from the prion danger. It's a serious question. I'd hate top put my alpacas or my family's health at risk if milk products could carry prions.

I won't reply to your further statements because I've already addressed each of them as much as I care to. I have relayed my views and my personal experiences and it's there for anyone to read. But I will say again that the particular product was not more economical than the fluid dairy products and in fact was harmful to my cria. In fact it was more expensive by a long margin than fluid mil products, so why use it?


Heather

Heather Zeleny
White Lotus Alpacas
Oregon

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece

On Mar 26, 2010, at 8:59 PM, Jody Ehler wrote:

Do you all realize everything you are saying about mad cow disease and feeding your animals....animal products...are exactly what each of us are made up of and cows milk has animal product in it...fat...and alpaca milk has animal product in it...fat... The alpaca is not chewing up grass and spitting down their crias throats and feeding them only vegetative product?  They are feeding them animal product until they can digest grass.  They way you all are carrying on about this subject seems to be going a bit over board.  The product is pretty standard for all animals including humans.  Do any of you replying to this eat any meat??  You must all be vegetarians??  Then we might as well get into what pesticides are on the vegetables you eat and what cancers you will develop later in life.  You are making so much of something that one person asked about using milk replacer?  Milk replacer is there for those who have no other means of feeding their poor animal that may die from starvation with no mommas milk.  This happens how often?  So, fifty fifty, lose the animal to starvation or mad cows disease?  I'd say quit scaring everyone to death about a product that is luckily there for those who need it.  Your animal may have been sensitive to the replacer.  Human babies also can be sensitive to milk replacer, which many use in our society, and then we have to find one that works and the baby quits throwing up on it and having diarrhea!!  :)  I am not criticizing you and your opinion, it's just that you all are going way outside the boundaries of the milk replacer question.  This will make good people feel like they are terrible care takers of their animals using this product.  It may work for some and not for others.  Just my opinion on the subject ...and my last.   You gave your opinion on the subject...it didn't work for you which is very sad.  No one wants to watch a poor critter suffer.  It worked for others which is a Yaaaa!  I would hope it's not your desire to really put the scare into people who are new to this area and make them never enter alpaca hood?  I would rather see comments for questions in the form of what you use and not an extreme answer to why others methods should not be used...unless it's actual animal cruelty!  :)  I know I probably should not have replied to this subject, but it is almost getting to the point where I have to start deleting all messages with this subject line... 

Jody Ehler
Solon, IA 52333
J & J Alpacas
Check out our adorable alpacas!
www.jandjalpacas.com


To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
From: barngirrl@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 23:03:43 -0400
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] what to use?: BSE

 
I still don't think I'd want to feed lard or whey to alpacas.  Its bad enough we don't have an ALPACA milk replacer made from alpaca milk and have to feed them cow's milk.
 
SUSAN
Alpaca Loco
Riverside, CA 
 
 
In a message dated 3/26/2010 11:27:32 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jgyelwa@ywave.com writes:
I took the time to call the company that manufactures the Sav-a-calf products.  I told the lady that there seems to be a mind set that mad cow disease can be gotten from using their products. 
 
She told me that mad cow disease does not come from pork fat.  The same product that you can buy in the store in a can to make pies: it is the edible grade lard.
 
The whey product is a by-product of cows milk from making cheese.
 
Jim Guerin
Jimmini Farm
Yelm, WA


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Recent Activity:
Message posts are the opinion of individuals posting and are not necessarily endorsed or approved by Yahoo! or the moderator of this group. The purpose of this discussion group is to ensure that all points of view can be aired. It is the responsbilty of all individuals who post to treat others with respect and civility.
.

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[AlpacaTalk] llama colustrum

 

hi all - i've just clicked onto this conversation about bottle feeding crias - i've used frozen llama colustrum and it works great
I also have Wombaroo Alpaca Milk Replacer - haven't needed to use this yet as have only had one bottle baby but it feels good to have it on hand as cria season is coming up
 
Wendy
DreamWeaver Alpacas
Port Alberni, BC

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Message posts are the opinion of individuals posting and are not necessarily endorsed or approved by Yahoo! or the moderator of this group. The purpose of this discussion group is to ensure that all points of view can be aired. It is the responsbilty of all individuals who post to treat others with respect and civility.
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RE: [AlpacaTalk] what to use?: BSE

 

Do you all realize everything you are saying about mad cow disease and feeding your animals....animal products...are exactly what each of us are made up of and cows milk has animal product in it...fat...and alpaca milk has animal product in it...fat... The alpaca is not chewing up grass and spitting down their crias throats and feeding them only vegetative product?  They are feeding them animal product until they can digest grass.  They way you all are carrying on about this subject seems to be going a bit over board.  The product is pretty standard for all animals including humans.  Do any of you replying to this eat any meat??  You must all be vegetarians??  Then we might as well get into what pesticides are on the vegetables you eat and what cancers you will develop later in life.  You are making so much of something that one person asked about using milk replacer?  Milk replacer is there for those who have no other means of feeding their poor animal that may die from starvation with no mommas milk.  This happens how often?  So, fifty fifty, lose the animal to starvation or mad cows disease?  I'd say quit scaring everyone to death about a product that is luckily there for those who need it.  Your animal may have been sensitive to the replacer.  Human babies also can be sensitive to milk replacer, which many use in our society, and then we have to find one that works and the baby quits throwing up on it and having diarrhea!!  :)  I am not criticizing you and your opinion, it's just that you all are going way outside the boundaries of the milk replacer question.  This will make good people feel like they are terrible care takers of their animals using this product.  It may work for some and not for others.  Just my opinion on the subject ...and my last.   You gave your opinion on the subject...it didn't work for you which is very sad.  No one wants to watch a poor critter suffer.  It worked for others which is a Yaaaa!  I would hope it's not your desire to really put the scare into people who are new to this area and make them never enter alpaca hood?  I would rather see comments for questions in the form of what you use and not an extreme answer to why others methods should not be used...unless it's actual animal cruelty!  :)  I know I probably should not have replied to this subject, but it is almost getting to the point where I have to start deleting all messages with this subject line...

Jody Ehler
Solon, IA 52333
J & J Alpacas
Check out our adorable alpacas!
www.jandjalpacas.com
 
 

 



 

 







 


To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
From: barngirrl@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 23:03:43 -0400
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] what to use?: BSE

 
I still don't think I'd want to feed lard or whey to alpacas.  Its bad enough we don't have an ALPACA milk replacer made from alpaca milk and have to feed them cow's milk.
 
SUSAN
Alpaca Loco
Riverside, CA 
 
 
In a message dated 3/26/2010 11:27:32 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jgyelwa@ywave.com writes:
I took the time to call the company that manufactures the Sav-a-calf products.  I told the lady that there seems to be a mind set that mad cow disease can be gotten from using their products. 
 
She told me that mad cow disease does not come from pork fat.  The same product that you can buy in the store in a can to make pies: it is the edible grade lard.
 
The whey product is a by-product of cows milk from making cheese.
 
Jim Guerin
Jimmini Farm
Yelm, WA




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Message posts are the opinion of individuals posting and are not necessarily endorsed or approved by Yahoo! or the moderator of this group. The purpose of this discussion group is to ensure that all points of view can be aired. It is the responsbilty of all individuals who post to treat others with respect and civility.
.

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] what to use?: BSE

 

I don't have a problem with whey, but the lard is a major problem for me. 


I don't know of studies done on milk and milk products as to whether they can or do carry prions. But given that they are indestructible and fatal, it seems like something that should be looked into.


Heather

Heather Zeleny
White Lotus Alpacas
Oregon

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece

On Mar 26, 2010, at 8:03 PM, barngirrl@aol.com wrote:

I still don't think I'd want to feed lard or whey to alpacas.  Its bad enough we don't have an ALPACA milk replacer made from alpaca milk and have to feed them cow's milk.
 
SUSAN
Alpaca Loco
Riverside, CA 
 
 
In a message dated 3/26/2010 11:27:32 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jgyelwa@ywave.com writes:
I took the time to call the company that manufactures the Sav-a-calf products.  I told the lady that there seems to be a mind set that mad cow disease can be gotten from using their products. 
 
She told me that mad cow disease does not come from pork fat.  The same product that you can buy in the store in a can to make pies: it is the edible grade lard.
 
The whey product is a by-product of cows milk from making cheese.
 
Jim Guerin
Jimmini Farm
Yelm, WA


__._,_.___
Recent Activity:
Message posts are the opinion of individuals posting and are not necessarily endorsed or approved by Yahoo! or the moderator of this group. The purpose of this discussion group is to ensure that all points of view can be aired. It is the responsbilty of all individuals who post to treat others with respect and civility.
.

__,_._,___

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [AlpacaTalk] what to use?: BSE

 

I still don't think I'd want to feed lard or whey to alpacas.  Its bad enough we don't have an ALPACA milk replacer made from alpaca milk and have to feed them cow's milk.
 
SUSAN
Alpaca Loco
Riverside, CA 
 
 
In a message dated 3/26/2010 11:27:32 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jgyelwa@ywave.com writes:
I took the time to call the company that manufactures the Sav-a-calf products.  I told the lady that there seems to be a mind set that mad cow disease can be gotten from using their products. 
 
She told me that mad cow disease does not come from pork fat.  The same product that you can buy in the store in a can to make pies: it is the edible grade lard.
 
The whey product is a by-product of cows milk from making cheese.
 
Jim Guerin
Jimmini Farm
Yelm, WA

__._,_.___
Recent Activity:
Message posts are the opinion of individuals posting and are not necessarily endorsed or approved by Yahoo! or the moderator of this group. The purpose of this discussion group is to ensure that all points of view can be aired. It is the responsbilty of all individuals who post to treat others with respect and civility.
.

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] what to use?

 

You've convinced me, Heather - chicken also has very high levels of arsenic in it.
 
SUSAN OLSON
Alpaca Loco
Riverside, CA
http://www.openherd.com/FarmPage.aspx?Farm=433

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] what to use?

 

And by the way, yes, that's how I understand anything I read about these prion diseases. It seems that if you ingest infected tissue, you are then very susceptible to contracting a spongiform encephalopathy. 


We really don't know that it's only pork lard that's in the Ultra 24 SavaCaf replacer, if it was ONLY pork lard used exclusivelyt, that would be what was listed in the ingredients. However, since the ingredients list "animal fat", that means that they buy whatever is the cheapest animal fat on the market on a given day and make the ingredients they've purchased fit the GA (guaranteed analysis) so they don't have to keep re-doing the GA and the ingredient list. Could be pork fat, could be beef fat, could be anything. Could even be dog or cat fat. Those are also sent to rendering plants.

I stand by my vow never to use this product again, and since it is not more economical than fluid cow milk and the whipping cream and yogurt that I add, I see absolutely no reason to use it for any reason.


Heather

Heather Zeleny
White Lotus Alpacas
Oregon

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece

On Mar 26, 2010, at 3:30 PM, Susan Forman wrote:


For what it's worth, mad cow or some form of it exists for most if not all mammals. I think I saw where it occurs about 1 in every 100,000 deer, maybe it was elk. It can and does pop up spontaneously among humans (Jacov ???) and a lot of other species. Several years ago, an outbreak on a mink ranch (and can't remember if it was the US or Russia) allowed the first decent study of the disease. That's all I know. I'm not going to go back and fact check, but I'm pretty sure I have most of that right...and indeed, last I read it appears that all animal products from an infected animal are capable of spreading the disease, but the brain is THE worst and most infective....read about Kuru.......thing is I wouldn't be at all surprised if we'd have a case in alpacas that just occurred spontaneously one of these days......But when I read what I read it was over 10 years ago, so I'm sure there's been further understanding...Can't remember the book I read, but it was a fascinating read....
 
Susan
 
Susan Forman
Dewey Morning Alpacas
Washington Court House, OH 43160
740-636-1899
http://www.alpacanation.com/deweymorning.asp
Home of Huey, Louie, and Dewey!
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] what to use?

 

http://www.kyrieology.com/drupal/wwje/madcow


"Some pigs in the United States may be infected with a porcine form of mad cow disease," according to an alarming study by U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) scientists that has recently come to light.


Heather

Heather Zeleny
White Lotus Alpacas
Oregon

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece

On Mar 25, 2010, at 12:02 PM, barngirrl@aol.com wrote:

I personally wouldn't purposely feed any animal product to a herbivore.  Isn't that how mad cow disease started?
 
SUSAN OLSON
Alpaca Loco
Riverside, CA
http://www.openherd.com/FarmPage.aspx?Farm=433




Susan Forman
Dewey Morning Alpacas
Washington Court House, OH 43160
740-636-1899
http://www.alpacanation.com/deweymorning.asp
Home of Huey, Louie, and Dewey!


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Message posts are the opinion of individuals posting and are not necessarily endorsed or approved by Yahoo! or the moderator of this group. The purpose of this discussion group is to ensure that all points of view can be aired. It is the responsbilty of all individuals who post to treat others with respect and civility.
.

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] what to use?

 

And here's the paragraph before the one I quoted in the previous post.


"Pork is also a potential source of infection. Cattle remains are still boiled down and legally fed to pigs (as well as chickens) in this country. The FDA allows this exemption because no "naturally occurring" porcine (pig) spongiform encephalopathy has ever been found. But American farmers typically kill pigs at just five months of age, long before the disease is expected to show symptoms. And, because pigs are packed so tightly together, it would be difficult to spot neurological conditions like spongiform encephalopathies, whose most obvious symptoms are movement and gait disturbances. We do know, however, that pigs are susceptible to the disease--laboratory experiments show that pigs can indeed be infected by Mad Cow brains[25]--and hundreds of thousands of downer pigs, too sick or crippled by injury to even walk, arrive at U.S. slaughterhouses every year.[26]"

Feeding rendered animal products to our livestock is not a good idea.

I was vegetarian for over 20 years of my life, and vegan for over 15 years. I am no longer vegetarian, but these health risks alone make one seriously consider the wisdom or necessity of eating animal flesh. Not to mention the ethical considerations which I will not even begin to discuss here.

Heather

Heather Zeleny
White Lotus Alpacas
Oregon

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece

On Mar 26, 2010, at 3:30 PM, Susan Forman wrote:


For what it's worth, mad cow or some form of it exists for most if not all mammals. I think I saw where it occurs about 1 in every 100,000 deer, maybe it was elk. It can and does pop up spontaneously among humans (Jacov ???) and a lot of other species. Several years ago, an outbreak on a mink ranch (and can't remember if it was the US or Russia) allowed the first decent study of the disease. That's all I know. I'm not going to go back and fact check, but I'm pretty sure I have most of that right...and indeed, last I read it appears that all animal products from an infected animal are capable of spreading the disease, but the brain is THE worst and most infective....read about Kuru.......thing is I wouldn't be at all surprised if we'd have a case in alpacas that just occurred spontaneously one of these days......But when I read what I read it was over 10 years ago, so I'm sure there's been further understanding...Can't remember the book I read, but it was a fascinating read....
 
Susan
 
Susan Forman
Dewey Morning Alpacas
Washington Court House, OH 43160
740-636-1899
http://www.alpacanation.com/deweymorning.asp
Home of Huey, Louie, and Dewey!
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] what to use?

 

http://www.kyrieology.com/drupal/wwje/madcow


"Some pigs in the United States may be infected with a porcine form of mad cow disease," according to an alarming study by U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) scientists that has recently come to light.


Heather

Heather Zeleny
White Lotus Alpacas
Oregon

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece

On Mar 25, 2010, at 12:02 PM, barngirrl@aol.com wrote:

I personally wouldn't purposely feed any animal product to a herbivore.  Isn't that how mad cow disease started?
 
SUSAN OLSON
Alpaca Loco
Riverside, CA
http://www.openherd.com/FarmPage.aspx?Farm=433




Susan Forman
Dewey Morning Alpacas
Washington Court House, OH 43160
740-636-1899
http://www.alpacanation.com/deweymorning.asp
Home of Huey, Louie, and Dewey!


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Message posts are the opinion of individuals posting and are not necessarily endorsed or approved by Yahoo! or the moderator of this group. The purpose of this discussion group is to ensure that all points of view can be aired. It is the responsbilty of all individuals who post to treat others with respect and civility.
.

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