Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Monday, December 05, 2005

[Alpacasite] Re: Question about the use of Concrete

On the plus side you need to clip toenails less if at all. If you
put their pellets on concrete it trims their teeth too.

Greystone Manor
Gary Epp

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, "cpqcolor" <PaulKimball@e...>
wrote:
>
> This is going to sound crazy, but I was asked to post this:
>
> My Father in Law read the recent article in Hobby Farms regarding
the
> use of concrete in stalls, etc. and he is now interested in
putting
> down concrete in all our stalls in both barns AND the overhang
(shed)
> areas on the barns sides to facilitate cleaning and lessen dust.
>
> Has anyone else done this? I'm thinking unless you put down
rubber
> mats over the concrete it would be too rough on the Alpaca's
joints -
> not to mention that every gasp of panic when a newborn is trying
to
> stand and is falling on their face. Any opinions? What about
spray-
> on rubber over the concrete?
>
> Thanks
>
> Paul Kimball
> Bluff View Farms LLC
> Birchwood, TN
>

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Fair play? Video games influencing politics. Click and talk back!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/u8TY5A/tzNLAA/yQLSAA/jO1qlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.

List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
http://aaalpacas.com

TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Alpacasite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

[Alpacasite] You should resign as a Director of the Alpaca Fiber Cooperative

You don't believe in the industry. You don't believe in
the "vision". You don't have vision.

Please stick with "old style" llamas,

Sorry,
Greystone Manor
Gary Epp

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, "gatewayfarm" <johnwmerrell@e...>
wrote:
>
> Gary, there are a number of errors in your figures, errors that
are
> unfortunately freely promulgated through the alpaca industry.
>
> It is extremely difficult to get accurate prices for alpaca in th
> global market. That said, if we look here:
>
> http://www.gschneider.com/brochure/specialfibresalpacatrend.php
>
> we can see that baby alpaca has held a pretty consistant $15 a
kilo
> for the past several years. That is about $7 a pound.
>
> If we compare this with Mohair, then we can go here:
>
> http://www.mohairusa.com/
>
> and find that in October of this year it was going for a little
over
> $8 a pound.
>
> While the value of alpaca is many thimes that of wool, it hardly
> stands above other specialty animal fibers.
>
> This is something that all producers should be aware of.
>
> I am not sure where your figures of 12-15 sweaters comes from. I
think
> that currently we should use a conservative estimate of 5 pounds
of
> prime fleece per animal. We should also figure greater than 10%
waste
> in processing.
>
> So, we are probably looking at no more than 4.5 pounds of finished
> yarn per animal per year. With waste from the manufacturing
process, I
> would guess no more than 3-5 sweaters per animal.
>
> That would produce a gross income of perhaps $400-500 annually.
But,
> we have yet to subtract the costs of keeping the animals, shearing
the
> animals, or shipping off the fiber for processing.
>
> In large quantities it is probably realistic to have raw fiber
> processed to yarn for $10-12 a pound, including scouring,
spinning,
> shipping, packaging, etc.
>
> So, for argument, let's assume that it costs $50 to keep each
animal a
> year (feed, vet, infrastructure, etc.), $20 to shear each animal,
$1
> pound to ship the fiber off, and $10 a pound to spin th fiber into
> yarn. I am sure that most would agree these are conservative
figures.
>
> 50+20+(1*5)+(10*5)=$125 annual cost
>
> Let's assume the yarn is worth $20 pound at the distributor level
>
> $20*5 = $100
>
> Do you begin to see some problems emerging?
>
> So, let's process that yarn into sweaters. Let's assume we can
get
> sweaters made for $25 a unit (including labeling and packaging),
and
> we get 3 out of each animal. So now our costs are
>
> 125+(3*25)=$200
>
> We can sell these sweaters for $150 each retail, but as we all
know
> retail is twice wholesale, which is twice what the distributor
gets.
> As primary producers, let's assume we are at the distributor
level So
>
> 150/2=75/2= $37.50 a unit
>
> 37.5*3=$122.50
>
> Oops, we are now losing over $75 an animal each year producing
> sweaters that will retail for $150 each.
>
> We can of course try to vertically integrate at a higher level.
We
> could become wholesalers, or even retailers. The problems there
have
> to do with exponentially increasing expenses, since we now need to
> maintain inventory and pay warehouse staff, sales staff,
accountants,
> managers, etc.
>
> I can assure you, the hoped for margins will evaporate quickly.
>
> Why this exercise in number crunching? We need to get realistic.
>
> I think that it is reasonable to look towards a time when we can
see
> actual returns of $15-20 a pound to the fiber producer. This, of
> course, does not take into account the producers costs, meaning
that
> it will be incumbent on the producer to reduce their production
costs
> to a level that maintains profitablity. That means the end of $25
a
> head shearing, Igg testing on every animal, expensive veterinary
> interventions, routine chemical parasite controls, etc.
>
> In short, it means transitioning into a true livestock industry.
>
> Can this be done? Of course, but only with foresight, planning,
and a
> realistic appreciation of the task at hand.
>
> Further, it will be through this transition that a market will be
> maintained for high end animals. Without a SUSTAINABLE foundation
(i.
> e. livestock industry) the whole house will collapse. Continuing
the
> myth of $5 an ounce fiber does no one any favors at this point in
> time. it was good marketing 10 years ago. Now is the time to get
> real!
>
> It is good to keep in mind that we will have in excess of one
million
> alpacas within the next 15 years. It is also important to
understand
> that the figures I share above assume collective efforts to
harvest
> and process the fleece our animals produce.
>
> As a Director of the Alpaca Fiber Cooperative I have spent many
hours
> agonizing over these numbers. It might be easier if we were not
> involved in a global economy, but such is not the case. We must be
> prepared to compete with low priced goods from Asia and South
America.
>
> I assure you, experienced livestock producers shake their heads in
> disbelief when they see figures like what you have shared below.
>
> John Merrell
> Gateway Farm Alpacas
> http://www.gateway-alpacas.com
> Alpaca, a natural elegance...
>
> --- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, "gepp1" <alpacas@g...> wrote:
> >
> > This is refering to:
> >
> > http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/message/105021?
> > threaded=1
> >
> > Hi Susan Gawarecki,
> >
> > The big difference in pricing between alpacas and llamas is the
base
> > value of the fleece. People have been buying cashmere for
hundreds
> > of years at a 5 - 20 times price premium over wool. Low micron
count
> > camilids fiber should always command a price premium similar to
> > cashmere. There are llama breeders that have been successful in
> > breeding llamas with fine fleece in reasonable shearing weights
and
> > they are still getting good prices. I know two that have waiting
> > lists for every cria. The older style llamas produced smaller
> > amounts of high micron fleece than an average alpaca. By the
way,
> > when we are considering an alpaca breed standard we should
consider
> > this lesson.
> >
> > An alpaca that yields 6-8 pounds per year of mid to low 20
micron
> > fleece is producing a renewable product worth more than $2000
gross
> > (12-15 sweaters) annually. At the same time a young breeding dam
in
> > good reproductive health will produce a minimum of 3 breed able
> > female and 3 fleece quality male cria. Therefore a young
breeding
> > quality female will be responsible for 42 – 56 pounds of fleece
in
> > her 10th year. That works out to $14,000 to 16,000 per year if
you
> > kept and bred that dam. How much do you think the investment
> > community values a stock whose gross revenue increases by a
factor
> > of 6 in ten years, that's a 40+% compound growth rate.
> >
> > If that dam is for sale NOW as a stock, the investment community
> > would value the stock at least 5 times current revenue ($2000 X
5 =
> > $10,000) plus about 50% expected 2 year appreciation (50% X
$11,000
> > = $5,500). You might ask where that $11,000 comes from. It's the
> > base price of one breed able female ($10,000) and one fleece
quality
> > male cria ($1000).
> >
> > The above example uses VERY conservative numbers and assumptions
but
> > clearly establishes a base value for a reproductively sound
maiden
> > in the $10,000 to $20,000 range. Where things get tricky is when
> > people pay $20,000 to $100,000 for females. The buyer is paying
> > a "premium" on speculation that the females genetics combined
with
> > an appropriate stud will produce offspring that improve on the
$2000
> > annual gross figure and the base value of the cria she will
produce.
> >
> > It gets even trickier when breeders pay over $100,000 for studs.
> > Let's say that a $200,000 stud has 100 cria, forget stud fees
and
> > taxes for a moment, part of the value question becomes, "has
that
> > stud increased the base value of its 100 cria by an average of
$2000
> > each"? If so the stud fees and tax breaks are gravy.
> >
> > Just some thoughts on alpaca value,
> > Greystone Manor
> > Gary Epp
> >
>

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a difference. Find and fund world-changing projects at GlobalGiving.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/jy2rEC/PbOLAA/cosFAA/jO1qlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.

List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
http://aaalpacas.com

TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Alpacasite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [Alpacasite] Digest Number 5188


What they received for the fraud they perpetuated (and for the person who
referred to the fraud as a mistake, please realize a mistake is committed by
accident, not design) was a pittance. People lost serious money. Did their
time? Puleeze! Learned from it - what's to learn? Not falsifying papers
and defrauding people? Show in front of people that lied and defrauded
others? Alpaca owners may be more forgiving, lots of llama owners would
think twice.
Susan Ravan
Ellijay, GA

sequences for their actions, but it seems that
> they "did their time" and have hopefully learned from it. Perhaps
> getting recertified is a positive thing and they are moving forward.
> Seems like a good thing.

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Fair play? Video games influencing politics. Click and talk back!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/u8TY5A/tzNLAA/yQLSAA/jO1qlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.

List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
http://aaalpacas.com

TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Alpacasite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

RE: [Alpacasite] Senior Judges & Llamas

Ken,

Earlier you said...."Why do I mention all this yet again? Because both Ms.
Reed and Mr. Stachowski are attending an AOBA judge recertification clinic
this weekend."

Do you have any other information regard the Judging clinic this weekend,
like who the instructors are and the list of all attendees?

Thanks,
Ana

Floyd and Ana Romanik
Indian Summer Alpacas
Chepachet, Rhode Island
Phone: (401) 568-7759
e-mail: ana@indiansummeralpacas.com

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Put more honey in your pocket. (money matters made easy).
http://us.click.yahoo.com/F9LvrA/dlQLAA/cosFAA/jO1qlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.

List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
http://aaalpacas.com

TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Alpacasite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

[Alpacasite] Admin note

Hi guys,
I've been out as a volunteer at the infamous judge clinic, and now that I'm
back, I'll clarify a couple of points.
First, my decision for the poll and the current situation with Ken was not
because of the Stachowski - Reed issue. Yes, it's been discussed ad nauseum,
but not against the rules.
Here's the part that WAS against the rules:
> Or perhaps you again prefer the mailing of slanderous anonomyous
> letters, since they have been so ineffective in the past? Who knows
> -- if the lies are repeated often enough, someone might believe
> them. But each time it happens, more and more people realize who
> the cowardly author is.
That was a personal attack, not acceptable here.
(FYI, the email from "Concerned AOBA member" from a couple of years ago did
NOT come from Lona, ah, the wonders of IP addresses, I can guarantee it
wasn't sent from her computer, but know where it did come from)
A couple others made it to the moderated list also, funny, they didn't
choose to answer me when I sent private emails, but now, I have emails in my
inbox.
I'm sure not perfect, I do my best to maintain balance on here.
We have everything from vocal political members to people learning, gelding
owners asking about feeding, and those in New Zealand.
This decision is controversial, and as such, I decided to put it before the
membership. It's as much your site as it is mine.
I will add though, that the same rules that apply to Ken will be applied to
those in the future.
Again, I do take this responsibility seriously, and I'll guarantee that I do
my best to administer this site to the best of my ability.

Rick
--
Rick & Pati Horn
All American Alpacas
Murrieta, Ca.
http://aaalpacas.com/updates.html
alpacas@alpacaweb.com - alpacas(at)alpacaweb.com
(951) 679-7795
Life is good!

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Put more honey in your pocket. (money matters made easy).
http://us.click.yahoo.com/F9LvrA/dlQLAA/cosFAA/jO1qlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.

List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
http://aaalpacas.com

TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Alpacasite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [Alpacasite] Inner Ear Infection

Is there some way to get a culture of what is going on in that ear and
determine exactly what you are dealing with so as to know exactly what to give?
Some antibiotics work better on certain things than others. Alice

Fred and Alice Brown
Forever Precious Alpacas
458 Main Road
Vineland, NJ 08360
856-697-8127
http://www.alpacanation.com/foreverprecious.asp
http://www.small-alpaca-farms.com
http://www.AlpacaHeritage.com
Home of Peruvian Virtual Vicuna
The ultimate vicuna patterned male.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Put more honey in your pocket. (money matters made easy).
http://us.click.yahoo.com/F9LvrA/dlQLAA/cosFAA/jO1qlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.

List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
http://aaalpacas.com

TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Alpacasite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

[Alpacasite] Re: Detecting Genetic Collagen Ear Defect

Yes, these archives are difficult to search. I did find some references, but they were
sufficiently vague. It is a line (or more) of huacaya, but in several places around the
country. Seems these alpaca get around!

I hope that there wouldn't be a reluctance to discuss how to properly check for health and
conformation in public, but perhaps there is.

Assuming this is a single dominant gene, many of the progeny are just fine - and there are
some nice animals. Just looking for some help in detecting the milder form of expression,
as it is seems heritable in the more severe form, and any information to confirm that is is a
case of simple dominance.

Thanks and Best Regards,

Jeff Groene
Cranston, RI
a749970@cox.net

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, Tim Wilson <tpwilson2@a...> wrote:
>
> jeff,
>
> Thanks for the clarification. I believe this has been discussed on our
> list before. Unfortunately I am a poor researcher and the archives seem
> rather difficult to search. I seem to recall that something like this
> has occured in a line of huacayas originating somewhere in the
> NE(nothing disparaging against huacaya but it is what I recall).
> Hopefully someone might contact you privately as many are ruluctant to
> share that type of information publically. If I am incorrect and the
> discussion was about a line of suri, I apologize ahead of time.
>
> Good luck on your population.
>
> Tim Wilson
> Sterling Forrest Alpacas
> Chagrin Falls OH
>
> ih_james wrote:
>
> >Thanks Tim. Sorry for the lack of infomation - we are located in Rhode Island. The
farm
> >name is still under discussion. The barn, fencing and other systems are coming
together
> >nicely - it's time to get them populated!
> >
> >We have been inspecting animals and reading/gathering supplies and equipment for
about
> >six months now. Have personally looked at a couple hundred animals to this point,
> >seriously considered a dozen, and this particular topic has come up several times.
> >
> >Unfortunately I have only been able to learn what I related in the post. There doesn't
seem
> >to be anything in the OSU archives. A local vet and some of his clients have been
gracious
> >enough to give us some hands-on experience with various procedures, but he has
been
> >unable to help with this.
> >
> >Best Regards,
> >
> >Jeff Groene
> >Cranston, RI
> >a749970@c...
> >
> >
> >--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, Tim Wilson <tpwilson2@a...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Jeff,
> >>
> >>Never too many questions and I don't think you are making unwarrented
> >>assumptions. What might help in responding is to give your farm name (if
> >>applicable) and a city/state location. This might help someone guide you
> >>to someone in your area that has had experience in your problem.
> >>
> >>Good Luck.
> >>
> >>Tim Wilson
> >>Sterling Forrest Alpacas
> >>Chagrin Falls, OH
> >>
> >>ih_james wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>As a relative newcomer to the industy I haven't inspected that many alpaca ears,
but
> >>>
> >>>
> >would
> >
> >
> >>>be interested in any advice on examining alpacas for the collagen-type genetic ear
> >>>
> >>>
> >defect.
> >
> >
> >>>Apparently, it is not always clearly expressed in some animals that have passed this
> >>>
> >>>
> >defect
> >
> >
> >>>along.
> >>>
> >>>I have read descriptions of narrowed ear canals and various lumps, bumps, and
> >>>
> >>>
> >swelling.
> >
> >
> >>>There are pictures of animals with severe expression that show obvious deformity,
but
> >>>
> >>>
> >of
> >
> >
> >>>more concern to me is detecting animals that have inherited the condition and
exhibit
> >>>
> >>>
> >only
> >
> >
> >>>a mild expression, but are apparently capable of producing offspring with more
> >>>
> >>>
> >extreme
> >
> >
> >>>problems. Also, does this condition resemble scarring as a result of aural
hematoma?
> >>>
> >>>
> >Is
> >
> >
> >>>there any way to tell the difference? Is there any evidence that this condition
results in
> >>>more ear infections or other ear problems?
> >>>
> >>>Information seems a bit hard to come by, but what I have read is that this is
suspected
> >>>
> >>>
> >to
> >
> >
> >>>be a simple dominant gene, with varying degrees of expression. Is there any new
> >>>information that it is a more complicated inheritance, or any evidence that it is
gender
> >>>specific? I have not seen any examples of a mother with mild or severe expression
> >>>
> >>>
> >that
> >
> >
> >>>have passed this along.
> >>>
> >>>I did some limited searching of the archives on this site, but didn't find much. Was
> >>>
> >>>
> >there a
> >
> >
> >>>month/year when such discussions took place?
> >>>
> >>>Too many questions? 8-)
> >>>
> >>>As I said, I am a newcomer to alpacas. If I am making any unwarranted
assumptions
> >>>
> >>>
> >or if I
> >
> >
> >>>seem to have bad information please feel free to correct - I'm not proud. Also feel
> >>>
> >>>
> >free to
> >
> >
> >>>contact me off-site.
> >>>
> >>>Thanks,
> >>>
> >>>Jeff Groene
> >>>a749970@c...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting
the
> >>>
> >>>
> >message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of
the
> >administrator or Yahoo.
> >
> >
> >>>
> >>>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@a...
> >>>http://aaalpacas.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
> >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the
message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the
administrator or Yahoo.
> >
> >
> >
> >List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@a...
> >http://aaalpacas.com
> >
> >
> >
> >TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Help tsunami villages rebuild at GlobalGiving. The real work starts now.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/T42rFC/KbOLAA/cosFAA/jO1qlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.

List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
http://aaalpacas.com

TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Alpacasite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [Alpacasite] Politics - PLEASE READ

Just got back, and no, I don't know how anyone votes.
When setting up a poll, there are 2 choices, we all know, or no one,
including myself knows.

Rick
--
Rick & Pati Horn
All American Alpacas
Murrieta, Ca.
http://aaalpacas.com/updates.html
alpacas@alpacaweb.com - alpacas(at)alpacaweb.com
(951) 679-7795
Life is good!

> From: Jan Sherrill <pacamom@lightspeed.net>
> Reply-To: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 13:57:24 -0800
> To: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Alpacasite] Politics - PLEASE READ
>
> I would vote, Rick, but I always thought that votes were private
> until I found out you know how each of us votes. Not that I care
> what you know, it's just the principle of the thing.
>
> Jan Sherrill
>
>
>> Since my post, I've received a few thank you letters.
>> This time, it's not enough.
>> I take a lot of heat for my decisions at times, this time, I'm passing the
>> buck.
>> A poll will go up in a couple of minutes. I'll leave it up to the members
>> here whether this type of posting continues.
>> If you don't vote, you can't complain.
>> Email and posting opinions won't cut it this time.
>>
>> Rick
>> --
>> Rick & Pati Horn
>> All American Alpacas
>> Murrieta, Ca.
>> <http://aaalpacas.com/updates.html>http://aaalpacas.com/updates.html
>> alpacas@alpacaweb.com - alpacas(at)alpacaweb.com
>> (951) 679-7795
>> Life is good!
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Or perhaps you again prefer the mailing of slanderous anonomyous
>>>>> letters, since they have been so ineffective in the past? Who knows
>>>>> -- if the lies are repeated often enough, someone might believe
>>>>> them. But each time it happens, more and more people realize who
>>>>> the cowardly author is.
>>>>>
>>>>> And Neil, your comment about "pointedly ignoring even bigger
>>>>> problems/history of another judge" is beneath you. If you have some
>>>>> facts, let's hear them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ken Madl
>>>>> Aviana Farms
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the
>>> person
>>>>> posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way
>>>>> reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas
>>> alpacas@alpacaweb.com
>>>>> <http://aaalpacas.com>http://aaalpacas.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit
>>>>> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join>http://groups.yahoo.com/gro
>>>>> up/Alpacasite/join
>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the
>>> person
>>> posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way
>>> reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
>>> <http://aaalpacas.com>http://aaalpacas.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit
>>> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join>http://groups.yahoo.com/group
>>> /Alpacasite/join
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of
>> the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each
>> message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>>
>>
>>
>> List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
>> <http://aaalpacas.com>http://aaalpacas.com
>>
>>
>>
>> TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit
>> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/
>> Alpacasite/join
>>
>>
>> SPONSORED LINKS
>> <'"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Business+finance+course&w1=Business+fi
>> nance+course&w2=Business+to+business+finance&w3=Small+business+finance&w4=Bus
>> iness+finance+consultant&w5=Business+finance+schools&w6=Business+finance+scho
>> ols&c=6&s=184&.sig=hKyq8v>Business
>> finance course
>> <'"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Business+to+business+finance&w1=Busine
>> ss+finance+course&w2=Business+to+business+finance&w3=Small+business+finance&w
>> 4=Business+finance+consultant&w5=Business+finance+schools&w6=Business+finance
>> +schools&c=6&s=184&.sig=8>Business
>> to business finance
>> <'"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Small+business+finance&w1=Business+fin
>> ance+course&w2=Business+to+business+finance&w3=Small+business+finance&w4=Busi
>> ness+finance+consultant&w5=Business+finance+schools&w6=Business+finance+schoo
>> ls&c=6&s=184&.sig=RfE0BUk>Small
>> business finance
>> <'"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Business+finance+consultant&w1=Busines
>> s+finance+course&w2=Business+to+business+finance&w3=Small+business+finance&w4
>> =Business+finance+consultant&w5=Business+finance+schools&w6=Business+finance+
>> schools&c=6&s=184&.sig=nJ>Business
>> finance consultant
>> <'"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Business+finance+schools&w1=Business+f
>> inance+course&w2=Business+to+business+finance&w3=Small+business+finance&w4=Bu
>> siness+finance+consultant&w5=Business+finance+schools&w6=Business+finance+sch
>> ools&c=6&s=184&.sig=2Gv_c>Business
>> finance schools
>> <'"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Business+finance+schools&w1=Business+f
>> inance+course&w2=Business+to+business+finance&w3=Small+business+finance&w4=Bu
>> siness+finance+consultant&w5=Business+finance+schools&w6=Business+finance+sch
>> ools&c=6&s=184&.sig=2Gv_c>Business
>> finance schools
>>
>>
>> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>>
>> Visit your group
>> "<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite>Alpacasite" on the web.
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>
>> <mailto:Alpacasite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>Alpacasite
>> -unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
>> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> --
> Jan Sherrill
> Celestial Alpacas
> Central Coast of California
> Templeton
> mailto:pacamom@lightspeed.net
>
> 805/238-2628
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person
> posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way
> reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>
>
>
> List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
> http://aaalpacas.com
>
>
>
> TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
1.2 million kids a year are victims of human trafficking. Stop slavery.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/WpTY2A/izNLAA/yQLSAA/jO1qlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.

List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
http://aaalpacas.com

TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Alpacasite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [Alpacasite] Re: Detecting Genetic Collagen Ear Defect

Hi Jeff,
Sorry I don't have time to research it myself, but here's a website that might help you.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi Also, the IVIS, International Veterinary Instute might help.
Let me know if you have luck.
Chris

Chris Mills
Outback Alpacas
507 Peck Rd.
Spencerport, NY 14559
585.392.3639
kusisqa@rochester.rr.com

----- Original Message -----
From: ih_james
To: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 10:08 PM
Subject: [Alpacasite] Re: Detecting Genetic Collagen Ear Defect

Thanks Tim. Sorry for the lack of infomation - we are located in Rhode Island. The farm
name is still under discussion. The barn, fencing and other systems are coming together
nicely - it's time to get them populated!

We have been inspecting animals and reading/gathering supplies and equipment for about
six months now. Have personally looked at a couple hundred animals to this point,
seriously considered a dozen, and this particular topic has come up several times.

Unfortunately I have only been able to learn what I related in the post. There doesn't seem
to be anything in the OSU archives. A local vet and some of his clients have been gracious
enough to give us some hands-on experience with various procedures, but he has been
unable to help with this.

Best Regards,

Jeff Groene
Cranston, RI
a749970@cox.net

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, Tim Wilson <tpwilson2@a...> wrote:
>
> Jeff,
>
> Never too many questions and I don't think you are making unwarrented
> assumptions. What might help in responding is to give your farm name (if
> applicable) and a city/state location. This might help someone guide you
> to someone in your area that has had experience in your problem.
>
> Good Luck.
>
> Tim Wilson
> Sterling Forrest Alpacas
> Chagrin Falls, OH
>
> ih_james wrote:
>
> >As a relative newcomer to the industy I haven't inspected that many alpaca ears, but
would
> >be interested in any advice on examining alpacas for the collagen-type genetic ear
defect.
> >Apparently, it is not always clearly expressed in some animals that have passed this
defect
> >along.
> >
> >I have read descriptions of narrowed ear canals and various lumps, bumps, and
swelling.
> >There are pictures of animals with severe expression that show obvious deformity, but
of
> >more concern to me is detecting animals that have inherited the condition and exhibit
only
> >a mild expression, but are apparently capable of producing offspring with more
extreme
> >problems. Also, does this condition resemble scarring as a result of aural hematoma?
Is
> >there any way to tell the difference? Is there any evidence that this condition results in
> >more ear infections or other ear problems?
> >
> >Information seems a bit hard to come by, but what I have read is that this is suspected
to
> >be a simple dominant gene, with varying degrees of expression. Is there any new
> >information that it is a more complicated inheritance, or any evidence that it is gender
> >specific? I have not seen any examples of a mother with mild or severe expression
that
> >have passed this along.
> >
> >I did some limited searching of the archives on this site, but didn't find much. Was
there a
> >month/year when such discussions took place?
> >
> >Too many questions? 8-)
> >
> >As I said, I am a newcomer to alpacas. If I am making any unwarranted assumptions
or if I
> >seem to have bad information please feel free to correct - I'm not proud. Also feel
free to
> >contact me off-site.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Jeff Groene
> >a749970@c...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the
message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the
administrator or Yahoo.
> >
> >
> >
> >List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@a...
> >http://aaalpacas.com
> >
> >
> >
> >TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.

List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
http://aaalpacas.com

TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join

SPONSORED LINKS Business finance course Business to business finance Small business finance
Business finance consultant Business finance schools Business finance schools

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

a.. Visit your group "Alpacasite" on the web.

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Alpacasite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a difference. Find and fund world-changing projects at GlobalGiving.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/jy2rEC/PbOLAA/cosFAA/jO1qlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.

List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
http://aaalpacas.com

TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Alpacasite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [Alpacasite] Re: Detecting Genetic Collagen Ear Defect

jeff,

Thanks for the clarification. I believe this has been discussed on our
list before. Unfortunately I am a poor researcher and the archives seem
rather difficult to search. I seem to recall that something like this
has occured in a line of huacayas originating somewhere in the
NE(nothing disparaging against huacaya but it is what I recall).
Hopefully someone might contact you privately as many are ruluctant to
share that type of information publically. If I am incorrect and the
discussion was about a line of suri, I apologize ahead of time.

Good luck on your population.

Tim Wilson
Sterling Forrest Alpacas
Chagrin Falls OH

ih_james wrote:

>Thanks Tim. Sorry for the lack of infomation - we are located in Rhode Island. The farm
>name is still under discussion. The barn, fencing and other systems are coming together
>nicely - it's time to get them populated!
>
>We have been inspecting animals and reading/gathering supplies and equipment for about
>six months now. Have personally looked at a couple hundred animals to this point,
>seriously considered a dozen, and this particular topic has come up several times.
>
>Unfortunately I have only been able to learn what I related in the post. There doesn't seem
>to be anything in the OSU archives. A local vet and some of his clients have been gracious
>enough to give us some hands-on experience with various procedures, but he has been
>unable to help with this.
>
>Best Regards,
>
>Jeff Groene
>Cranston, RI
>a749970@cox.net
>
>
>--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, Tim Wilson <tpwilson2@a...> wrote:
>
>
>>Jeff,
>>
>>Never too many questions and I don't think you are making unwarrented
>>assumptions. What might help in responding is to give your farm name (if
>>applicable) and a city/state location. This might help someone guide you
>>to someone in your area that has had experience in your problem.
>>
>>Good Luck.
>>
>>Tim Wilson
>>Sterling Forrest Alpacas
>>Chagrin Falls, OH
>>
>>ih_james wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>As a relative newcomer to the industy I haven't inspected that many alpaca ears, but
>>>
>>>
>would
>
>
>>>be interested in any advice on examining alpacas for the collagen-type genetic ear
>>>
>>>
>defect.
>
>
>>>Apparently, it is not always clearly expressed in some animals that have passed this
>>>
>>>
>defect
>
>
>>>along.
>>>
>>>I have read descriptions of narrowed ear canals and various lumps, bumps, and
>>>
>>>
>swelling.
>
>
>>>There are pictures of animals with severe expression that show obvious deformity, but
>>>
>>>
>of
>
>
>>>more concern to me is detecting animals that have inherited the condition and exhibit
>>>
>>>
>only
>
>
>>>a mild expression, but are apparently capable of producing offspring with more
>>>
>>>
>extreme
>
>
>>>problems. Also, does this condition resemble scarring as a result of aural hematoma?
>>>
>>>
>Is
>
>
>>>there any way to tell the difference? Is there any evidence that this condition results in
>>>more ear infections or other ear problems?
>>>
>>>Information seems a bit hard to come by, but what I have read is that this is suspected
>>>
>>>
>to
>
>
>>>be a simple dominant gene, with varying degrees of expression. Is there any new
>>>information that it is a more complicated inheritance, or any evidence that it is gender
>>>specific? I have not seen any examples of a mother with mild or severe expression
>>>
>>>
>that
>
>
>>>have passed this along.
>>>
>>>I did some limited searching of the archives on this site, but didn't find much. Was
>>>
>>>
>there a
>
>
>>>month/year when such discussions took place?
>>>
>>>Too many questions? 8-)
>>>
>>>As I said, I am a newcomer to alpacas. If I am making any unwarranted assumptions
>>>
>>>
>or if I
>
>
>>>seem to have bad information please feel free to correct - I'm not proud. Also feel
>>>
>>>
>free to
>
>
>>>contact me off-site.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>Jeff Groene
>>>a749970@c...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the
>>>
>>>
>message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the
>administrator or Yahoo.
>
>
>>>
>>>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@a...
>>>http://aaalpacas.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>
>
>
>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
>http://aaalpacas.com
>
>
>
>TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Put more honey in your pocket. (money matters made easy).
http://us.click.yahoo.com/F9LvrA/dlQLAA/cosFAA/jO1qlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.

List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
http://aaalpacas.com

TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Alpacasite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [Alpacasite] Detecting Genetic Collagen Ear Defect

Considering the fact that alpaca ears naturally have very narrow canals and
many "lumps and bumps", I do believe that ear infections are not that
common. The most likely cause is ear mites leading to secondary infection.
I have found that washing the ear out with colloidal silver is remarkably
successful. I haven't had much success with systemic antibiotics.

Barrie Hanslip
Sooke, BC

----- Original Message -----
From: "ih_james" <ih_james@yahoo.com>
To: <Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 11:00 AM
Subject: [Alpacasite] Detecting Genetic Collagen Ear Defect

> As a relative newcomer to the industy I haven't inspected that many alpaca
> ears, but would
> be interested in any advice on examining alpacas for the collagen-type
> genetic ear defect.
> Apparently, it is not always clearly expressed in some animals that have
> passed this defect
> along.
>
> I have read descriptions of narrowed ear canals and various lumps, bumps,
> and swelling.
>

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Put more honey in your pocket. (money matters made easy).
http://us.click.yahoo.com/F9LvrA/dlQLAA/cosFAA/jO1qlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.

List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
http://aaalpacas.com

TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Alpacasite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

[Alpacasite] Spellling: need good hey in California!

Hi Jan,
Well, just so you know you aren't the only one out there, it drives me crazy to read misspelled words as well :))
I just bite my tongue and go on, because I remember that not everyone is a Literature Freak like me.
Ask anyone I chat with, I can't type worth beans and typos fly off my fingers like beads of water... drives me nuts. I always am apologizing and retyping..... I am sure it drives them crazy too because they say they can read fluent "typonese" LOL... but I can't stop apologizing and correcting!!

So, from one grammar nut to another, the English language isn't dead... it just aint used for good nomore ;-)

Off to read the latest from Michael Crichton :))
Ciao~
Rachelle

Wyatt & Rachelle Black
Black Magic Alpaca Ranch
Honesty, Integrity, Quality
6500 Digier Road
P.O. Box 457
Lebec, CA
93243
http://www.blackmagicalpacaranch.com
wyattblack@earthlink.net
661-248-6568

Message: 21
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 11:20:56 -0800
From: Jan Sherrill <pacamom@lightspeed.net>
Subject: Re: Spellling: need good hey in California!

Sorry for the public post--the spelling thing should have gone to
Holly. I don't correct people on the site but never saw anything
from Rick saying that you couldn't do that. It's so easy to break
rules that you don't even know exist!

No, Margie, I am not the spelling police and as you can tell from
above I didn't intend that to go to the site. :-( It's hard to
realize though that spelling things correctly isn't of value to most
folks any longer. It was such a part of my growing up in a family
with two parents who were teachers.

And, yes, David I, too, am guilty of misspelling things
sometimes....many are typos which I realize is what happens to all of
us. I don't use the spell checker because it tries to "correct" half
of the alpaca related words I use and is more trouble than it's
worth. Can you tell me what are genetics related to language? The
etiology of the words? The history of the various languages? Better
post privately as this goes far beyone alpaca world. Tee hee.

Jan Sherrill

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Put more honey in your pocket. (money matters made easy).
http://us.click.yahoo.com/F9LvrA/dlQLAA/cosFAA/jO1qlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.

List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
http://aaalpacas.com

TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Alpacasite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

[Alpacasite] Re: Detecting Genetic Collagen Ear Defect

Thanks Tim. Sorry for the lack of infomation - we are located in Rhode Island. The farm
name is still under discussion. The barn, fencing and other systems are coming together
nicely - it's time to get them populated!

We have been inspecting animals and reading/gathering supplies and equipment for about
six months now. Have personally looked at a couple hundred animals to this point,
seriously considered a dozen, and this particular topic has come up several times.

Unfortunately I have only been able to learn what I related in the post. There doesn't seem
to be anything in the OSU archives. A local vet and some of his clients have been gracious
enough to give us some hands-on experience with various procedures, but he has been
unable to help with this.

Best Regards,

Jeff Groene
Cranston, RI
a749970@cox.net

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, Tim Wilson <tpwilson2@a...> wrote:
>
> Jeff,
>
> Never too many questions and I don't think you are making unwarrented
> assumptions. What might help in responding is to give your farm name (if
> applicable) and a city/state location. This might help someone guide you
> to someone in your area that has had experience in your problem.
>
> Good Luck.
>
> Tim Wilson
> Sterling Forrest Alpacas
> Chagrin Falls, OH
>
> ih_james wrote:
>
> >As a relative newcomer to the industy I haven't inspected that many alpaca ears, but
would
> >be interested in any advice on examining alpacas for the collagen-type genetic ear
defect.
> >Apparently, it is not always clearly expressed in some animals that have passed this
defect
> >along.
> >
> >I have read descriptions of narrowed ear canals and various lumps, bumps, and
swelling.
> >There are pictures of animals with severe expression that show obvious deformity, but
of
> >more concern to me is detecting animals that have inherited the condition and exhibit
only
> >a mild expression, but are apparently capable of producing offspring with more
extreme
> >problems. Also, does this condition resemble scarring as a result of aural hematoma?
Is
> >there any way to tell the difference? Is there any evidence that this condition results in
> >more ear infections or other ear problems?
> >
> >Information seems a bit hard to come by, but what I have read is that this is suspected
to
> >be a simple dominant gene, with varying degrees of expression. Is there any new
> >information that it is a more complicated inheritance, or any evidence that it is gender
> >specific? I have not seen any examples of a mother with mild or severe expression
that
> >have passed this along.
> >
> >I did some limited searching of the archives on this site, but didn't find much. Was
there a
> >month/year when such discussions took place?
> >
> >Too many questions? 8-)
> >
> >As I said, I am a newcomer to alpacas. If I am making any unwarranted assumptions
or if I
> >seem to have bad information please feel free to correct - I'm not proud. Also feel
free to
> >contact me off-site.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Jeff Groene
> >a749970@c...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the
message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the
administrator or Yahoo.
> >
> >
> >
> >List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@a...
> >http://aaalpacas.com
> >
> >
> >
> >TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.

List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
http://aaalpacas.com

TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Alpacasite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

[Alpacasite] Question about the use of Concrete

This is going to sound crazy, but I was asked to post this:

My Father in Law read the recent article in Hobby Farms regarding the
use of concrete in stalls, etc. and he is now interested in putting
down concrete in all our stalls in both barns AND the overhang (shed)
areas on the barns sides to facilitate cleaning and lessen dust.

Has anyone else done this? I'm thinking unless you put down rubber
mats over the concrete it would be too rough on the Alpaca's joints -
not to mention that every gasp of panic when a newborn is trying to
stand and is falling on their face. Any opinions? What about spray-
on rubber over the concrete?

Thanks

Paul Kimball
Bluff View Farms LLC
Birchwood, TN

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Put more honey in your pocket. (money matters made easy).
http://us.click.yahoo.com/F9LvrA/dlQLAA/cosFAA/jO1qlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.

List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
http://aaalpacas.com

TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Alpacasite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [Alpacasite] Detecting Genetic Collagen Ear Defect

Jeff,

Never too many questions and I don't think you are making unwarrented
assumptions. What might help in responding is to give your farm name (if
applicable) and a city/state location. This might help someone guide you
to someone in your area that has had experience in your problem.

Good Luck.

Tim Wilson
Sterling Forrest Alpacas
Chagrin Falls, OH

ih_james wrote:

>As a relative newcomer to the industy I haven't inspected that many alpaca ears, but would
>be interested in any advice on examining alpacas for the collagen-type genetic ear defect.
>Apparently, it is not always clearly expressed in some animals that have passed this defect
>along.
>
>I have read descriptions of narrowed ear canals and various lumps, bumps, and swelling.
>There are pictures of animals with severe expression that show obvious deformity, but of
>more concern to me is detecting animals that have inherited the condition and exhibit only
>a mild expression, but are apparently capable of producing offspring with more extreme
>problems. Also, does this condition resemble scarring as a result of aural hematoma? Is
>there any way to tell the difference? Is there any evidence that this condition results in
>more ear infections or other ear problems?
>
>Information seems a bit hard to come by, but what I have read is that this is suspected to
>be a simple dominant gene, with varying degrees of expression. Is there any new
>information that it is a more complicated inheritance, or any evidence that it is gender
>specific? I have not seen any examples of a mother with mild or severe expression that
>have passed this along.
>
>I did some limited searching of the archives on this site, but didn't find much. Was there a
>month/year when such discussions took place?
>
>Too many questions? 8-)
>
>As I said, I am a newcomer to alpacas. If I am making any unwarranted assumptions or if I
>seem to have bad information please feel free to correct - I'm not proud. Also feel free to
>contact me off-site.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Jeff Groene
>a749970@cox.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>
>
>
>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
>http://aaalpacas.com
>
>
>
>TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Put more honey in your pocket. (money matters made easy).
http://us.click.yahoo.com/F9LvrA/dlQLAA/cosFAA/jO1qlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.

List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
http://aaalpacas.com

TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Alpacasite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

[Alpacasite] Re: Alpaca vs. llama prices - Attn: Susan Gawarecki

Gary, there are a number of errors in your figures, errors that are
unfortunately freely promulgated through the alpaca industry.

It is extremely difficult to get accurate prices for alpaca in th
global market. That said, if we look here:

http://www.gschneider.com/brochure/specialfibresalpacatrend.php

we can see that baby alpaca has held a pretty consistant $15 a kilo
for the past several years. That is about $7 a pound.

If we compare this with Mohair, then we can go here:

http://www.mohairusa.com/

and find that in October of this year it was going for a little over
$8 a pound.

While the value of alpaca is many thimes that of wool, it hardly
stands above other specialty animal fibers.

This is something that all producers should be aware of.

I am not sure where your figures of 12-15 sweaters comes from. I think
that currently we should use a conservative estimate of 5 pounds of
prime fleece per animal. We should also figure greater than 10% waste
in processing.

So, we are probably looking at no more than 4.5 pounds of finished
yarn per animal per year. With waste from the manufacturing process, I
would guess no more than 3-5 sweaters per animal.

That would produce a gross income of perhaps $400-500 annually. But,
we have yet to subtract the costs of keeping the animals, shearing the
animals, or shipping off the fiber for processing.

In large quantities it is probably realistic to have raw fiber
processed to yarn for $10-12 a pound, including scouring, spinning,
shipping, packaging, etc.

So, for argument, let's assume that it costs $50 to keep each animal a
year (feed, vet, infrastructure, etc.), $20 to shear each animal, $1
pound to ship the fiber off, and $10 a pound to spin th fiber into
yarn. I am sure that most would agree these are conservative figures.

50+20+(1*5)+(10*5)=$125 annual cost

Let's assume the yarn is worth $20 pound at the distributor level

$20*5 = $100

Do you begin to see some problems emerging?

So, let's process that yarn into sweaters. Let's assume we can get
sweaters made for $25 a unit (including labeling and packaging), and
we get 3 out of each animal. So now our costs are

125+(3*25)=$200

We can sell these sweaters for $150 each retail, but as we all know
retail is twice wholesale, which is twice what the distributor gets.
As primary producers, let's assume we are at the distributor level So

150/2=75/2= $37.50 a unit

37.5*3=$122.50

Oops, we are now losing over $75 an animal each year producing
sweaters that will retail for $150 each.

We can of course try to vertically integrate at a higher level. We
could become wholesalers, or even retailers. The problems there have
to do with exponentially increasing expenses, since we now need to
maintain inventory and pay warehouse staff, sales staff, accountants,
managers, etc.

I can assure you, the hoped for margins will evaporate quickly.

Why this exercise in number crunching? We need to get realistic.

I think that it is reasonable to look towards a time when we can see
actual returns of $15-20 a pound to the fiber producer. This, of
course, does not take into account the producers costs, meaning that
it will be incumbent on the producer to reduce their production costs
to a level that maintains profitablity. That means the end of $25 a
head shearing, Igg testing on every animal, expensive veterinary
interventions, routine chemical parasite controls, etc.

In short, it means transitioning into a true livestock industry.

Can this be done? Of course, but only with foresight, planning, and a
realistic appreciation of the task at hand.

Further, it will be through this transition that a market will be
maintained for high end animals. Without a SUSTAINABLE foundation (i.
e. livestock industry) the whole house will collapse. Continuing the
myth of $5 an ounce fiber does no one any favors at this point in
time. it was good marketing 10 years ago. Now is the time to get
real!

It is good to keep in mind that we will have in excess of one million
alpacas within the next 15 years. It is also important to understand
that the figures I share above assume collective efforts to harvest
and process the fleece our animals produce.

As a Director of the Alpaca Fiber Cooperative I have spent many hours
agonizing over these numbers. It might be easier if we were not
involved in a global economy, but such is not the case. We must be
prepared to compete with low priced goods from Asia and South America.

I assure you, experienced livestock producers shake their heads in
disbelief when they see figures like what you have shared below.

John Merrell
Gateway Farm Alpacas
http://www.gateway-alpacas.com
Alpaca, a natural elegance...

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, "gepp1" <alpacas@g...> wrote:
>
> This is refering to:
>
> http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/message/105021?
> threaded=1
>
> Hi Susan Gawarecki,
>
> The big difference in pricing between alpacas and llamas is the base
> value of the fleece. People have been buying cashmere for hundreds
> of years at a 5 - 20 times price premium over wool. Low micron count
> camilids fiber should always command a price premium similar to
> cashmere. There are llama breeders that have been successful in
> breeding llamas with fine fleece in reasonable shearing weights and
> they are still getting good prices. I know two that have waiting
> lists for every cria. The older style llamas produced smaller
> amounts of high micron fleece than an average alpaca. By the way,
> when we are considering an alpaca breed standard we should consider
> this lesson.
>
> An alpaca that yields 6-8 pounds per year of mid to low 20 micron
> fleece is producing a renewable product worth more than $2000 gross
> (12-15 sweaters) annually. At the same time a young breeding dam in
> good reproductive health will produce a minimum of 3 breed able
> female and 3 fleece quality male cria. Therefore a young breeding
> quality female will be responsible for 42 – 56 pounds of fleece in
> her 10th year. That works out to $14,000 to 16,000 per year if you
> kept and bred that dam. How much do you think the investment
> community values a stock whose gross revenue increases by a factor
> of 6 in ten years, that's a 40+% compound growth rate.
>
> If that dam is for sale NOW as a stock, the investment community
> would value the stock at least 5 times current revenue ($2000 X 5 =
> $10,000) plus about 50% expected 2 year appreciation (50% X $11,000
> = $5,500). You might ask where that $11,000 comes from. It's the
> base price of one breed able female ($10,000) and one fleece quality
> male cria ($1000).
>
> The above example uses VERY conservative numbers and assumptions but
> clearly establishes a base value for a reproductively sound maiden
> in the $10,000 to $20,000 range. Where things get tricky is when
> people pay $20,000 to $100,000 for females. The buyer is paying
> a "premium" on speculation that the females genetics combined with
> an appropriate stud will produce offspring that improve on the $2000
> annual gross figure and the base value of the cria she will produce.
>
> It gets even trickier when breeders pay over $100,000 for studs.
> Let's say that a $200,000 stud has 100 cria, forget stud fees and
> taxes for a moment, part of the value question becomes, "has that
> stud increased the base value of its 100 cria by an average of $2000
> each"? If so the stud fees and tax breaks are gravy.
>
> Just some thoughts on alpaca value,
> Greystone Manor
> Gary Epp
>

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Put more honey in your pocket. (money matters made easy).
http://us.click.yahoo.com/F9LvrA/dlQLAA/cosFAA/jO1qlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.

List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
http://aaalpacas.com

TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Alpacasite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [Alpacasite] Subject: Ken's posting

Rachelle,

I think that is the point.

When someone makes a post that some have no interest in reading they
immediately go to "Mom" and cry to have "Johnny" take his discussion
elsewhere. What I have tried to say for several years is that what one
person views as material to the subject of alpacas (can be about hay or
Senior Judges) another person may find of no interest at all.
Regardless, everyone has the right to ask questions, post facts, inquire
as to why something is so without having to worry if it is PC or if
someone is going to ask to have that person or subject censored.

So rather than ask that the subject be moved to some obscure site why
can we not use the delete key?

PS: And I fully support John M, Lona F, Neil P and anyone else on this
list that have an interest in alpacas to be able to voice their opinion
on any topic even when I might not agree with it. Let's give up
censorship, it doesn't become us.

Tim Wilson
Sterling Forrest Alpacas
Chagrin Falls, OH

Wyatt Black wrote:

>The same could be said - regarding the right to use the delete key- for the posts on hay prices around the country. Personally I find it fascinating, but if I didn't, I wouldn't begrudge anyone else the right to read the, what was it, 100 +? emails on hay bale sizes.
>
>Have we really written that many?? Let's go for 200!! :))
>Ciao~
>Rachelle
>
>
>Wyatt & Rachelle Black
>Black Magic Alpaca Ranch
>Honesty, Integrity, Quality
>6500 Digier Road
>P.O. Box 457
>Lebec, CA
>93243
>http://www.blackmagicalpacaranch.com
>wyattblack@earthlink.net
>661-248-6568
>
>Message: 11
>Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 06:14:10 -0000
>From: "ragnarsalpacas" <ebjorkvist@aol.com>
>Subject: Ken's posting
>
>Why is it that there are a few folks on this site that raise
>objections to Ken's posting? I would much rather read what Ken has to
>say than read 100+ messages about the size of hay bales in different
>parts of the US! What difference does it make if I can buy hay for
>$3.00-$4.00 in NY? I live in Colorado where I pay about $7.50 for a
>bale of hay- I am not going to order a load from NY or California or
>anyplace else I am going to get my hay local!
>Ken has some great information about alpacas and their care as do
>alot of other people. I have always believed that things should not
>be color coated. There are not so honest people in all walks of
>life, if we can not share that information on this site with other
>alpaca on this site we have a problem. I would much rather know the
>history of those that are becoming judges than the price of hay in
>NY.! Lona, you seem to know "something" about another judge-but
>rather than take the heat yourself for presenting the facts you want
>to pass it off on someone else so you can remain "safe".
>Neil, while I have read all of your postings and gained alot of
>useful information from them, Ken has the right to do his postings.
>No one has to answer them or feel the need to respond to them. That
>is why there is a delete button on the key board!
>I do not know Ken personally, but I enjoy his information and take it
>for what it is worth- INFORMATION not gospel! We all still need to do
>our own research. Ken just has alot more of the research available
>that he is willing to share!
>Darice
>Ellicott CO
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>
>
>
>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
>http://aaalpacas.com
>
>
>
>TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Help Sudanese refugees rebuild their lives through GlobalGiving.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/V42rFC/EbOLAA/cosFAA/jO1qlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.

List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
http://aaalpacas.com

TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Alpacasite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

[Alpacasite] Re: Llama in car...

Where did you get that figure of $50 for a fleece grade alpaca in
Australia? Even Marino sheep cost $200 and up worldwide.

Are you trying to say a fleece alpaca is worth 1/4 what a Marino
sheep is?

Greystone Manor
Gary Epp

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, Susan Gawarecki
<llamaladysg@y...> wrote:
>
> Kathryn Coursey wrote:
>
> <<MAJOR differences in how the llama industry and the
> alpaca
> Industry are organized and run..... Makes for a HUGE
> difference in How the pricing changes over time. Has
> proven to be so far and
> Looks to be in future a very SLOW and acceptable price
> drop in
> SOME alpacas as we become better able to distinguish
> desirability
> And are better able to breed FOR those traits. >>
>
> The alpaca industry seems to be where the llama
> industry was about 15 years ago. At that time, llama
> owners were breeding all females, prices were
> sky-high, and new owners were investing in droves. I
> agree that the alpaca industry has done a magnificent
> job in promoting alpacas as an investment, but it
> relies on breeders selling to other breeders, and most
> particularly to new breeders. It's the new breeders
> who have to figure out how to establish their
> reputations and sell to more new breeders. Many will
> not be able to compete, because they started with the
> [affordable] animals with the least desirable traits
> as their entry animals. Like llamas, alpacas have one
> cria a year, and eventually supply will begin to
> exceed demand. I know this is already happening in
> some parts of the country.
>
> My question is, where is the value-added with alpacas?
> They were developed specifically for fiber
> production, but realistically, you cannot make back
> the cost of your animal and feeding it by selling its
> fleece. Australia is aiming for a national herd of
> consistent high quality alpacas, preferably white,
> that cost $50 each. That is what an alpaca FIBER
> industry should look like.
>
> The US alpaca industry may be able to stave off
> falling prices for a while longer by not allowing
> imports, but then you end up with a genetic bottleneck
> which results in an increased rate of birth defects,
> as well as other undesirable traits (due to breeding
> ALL fertile females) such as poor milk production,
> conformation problems, and temperament issues.
>
> Also, I can't help but notice how the alpaca industry
> is really milking its members. Prices for anything to
> do with alpacas are significantly higher than the same
> things for llamas (organizational memberships, show
> entry fees, etc). There is no reason for this except
> that alpaca owners look like cash cows and aren't
> willing to push back for lower costs. For this
> reason, I won't join AOBA and won't pay the non-member
> fees to show my non-breeder alpacas at shows like the
> North American, where the ALSA- and AOBA-sanctioned
> shows are held simultaneously. I will show my alpacas
> in performance classes and alpaca halter classes at
> ALSA shows. For fun.
>
> 15 years passes fast. My 0.02 worth.
>
>
> Susan Gawarecki
> Pathfinder Farm
> Andersonville, TN
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a difference. Find and fund world-changing projects at GlobalGiving.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/jy2rEC/PbOLAA/cosFAA/jO1qlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.

List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
http://aaalpacas.com

TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Alpacasite-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/