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Sunday, March 02, 2008

Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: Colors

Yep, its all just theory.  Didn't mean to imply otherwise.

And modifier genes would account for a white out of two browns - at least according to Liz Paul.

Oh, Amy, I believe you asked about a a site with color X color matings.  This is the only one I know of -

http://www.alpacas.com/Resources/ColorCalcForm.aspx

And you will note, out of 577 white to white mates, 1.4% were black offspring. 

This calculator needs to be taken with a bit of a grain of salt because it lumps some colors together, and doesn't separate multi colored animals, but its fun to look at what you can or might not get.

Heidi Christensen
WingNut Farm Alpacas
Graham WA
(253) 846-2168 or (253) 592-0200
www.wingnut-alpacas.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Heather Zeleny <alpacatalk@westwindalpacas.com>
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 1:34 pm
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: Colors

Well, white being dominant is a theory, one that I don't particularly
agree with. And that is based on my personal observation of breedings
we've done over the past 10 years, with outcomes of well over 100
crias. I'll have to count them all up to know the actual number, it
might take a while! We've never had a black out of two whites, although
we have had vicuña fawns out of two whites. It's my opinion and
observation that the vicuña fawn color and pattern is sort of the
default, as it is the natural color and pattern of the vicuña, from
which the alpaca was domesticated.

We've had a few white crias born from pairing coloreds. Example: white
cria from brown dam and brown sire. Dam was an import, sire was black
dam x white sire. This outcome to me says that the dominant color is
expressed on the colored alpaca, and white is recessive (not expressed
but carried) and when the cria received the recessive white gene from
each of its colored parent, it of course was white.

Dominant genes are always expressed, however recessive genes are
expressed when two copies are present. Hence, white cria from two
browns. The white gene is recessive. At least on our farm. :)

Heather

Heather Zeleny
West Wind Alpacas
Eugene, OR

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece
http://www.westwindalpacas.com/
http://www.alpacanation.com/westwind.asp
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AlpacaTalk/join

On Mar 2, 2008, at 8:01 AM, Radched@aol.com wrote:

> I agree with what Joyce says (except I disagree that ANY alpaca has
> perfect conformation:), but just want to add getting a good
> understanding of the genetics behind alpaca color inheritance is
> important, regardless of where you want to go with the color of your
> breeding program.
>
> All alpacas have two color genes (plus a couple other genes that
> modify the base color), and lighter colors are dominant.? Thats why
> two white alpacas can have a black cria - or like in Joyce's example,
> two brown ones made a black cria.? Patterns are also dominant.
>
> Some good articles on color inheritance appear on this web site.
>
> http://alpacagenetics.com/library.html
>
> Heidi Christensen
> WingNut Farm Alpacas
> Graham WA
> (253) 846-2168 or (253) 592-0200
> www.wingnut-alpacas.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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posted by Chaddo at 6:11 PM 0 comments

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: Colors

Well, white being dominant is a theory, one that I don't particularly
agree with. And that is based on my personal observation of breedings
we've done over the past 10 years, with outcomes of well over 100
crias. I'll have to count them all up to know the actual number, it
might take a while! We've never had a black out of two whites, although
we have had vicuña fawns out of two whites. It's my opinion and
observation that the vicuña fawn color and pattern is sort of the
default, as it is the natural color and pattern of the vicuña, from
which the alpaca was domesticated.

We've had a few white crias born from pairing coloreds. Example: white
cria from brown dam and brown sire. Dam was an import, sire was black
dam x white sire. This outcome to me says that the dominant color is
expressed on the colored alpaca, and white is recessive (not expressed
but carried) and when the cria received the recessive white gene from
each of its colored parent, it of course was white.

Dominant genes are always expressed, however recessive genes are
expressed when two copies are present. Hence, white cria from two
browns. The white gene is recessive. At least on our farm. :)

Heather

Heather Zeleny
West Wind Alpacas
Eugene, OR

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece
http://www.westwindalpacas.com/
http://www.alpacanation.com/westwind.asp
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AlpacaTalk/join

On Mar 2, 2008, at 8:01 AM, Radched@aol.com wrote:

> I agree with what Joyce says (except I disagree that ANY alpaca has
> perfect conformation:), but just want to add getting a good
> understanding of the genetics behind alpaca color inheritance is
> important, regardless of where you want to go with the color of your
> breeding program.
>
> All alpacas have two color genes (plus a couple other genes that
> modify the base color), and lighter colors are dominant.? Thats why
> two white alpacas can have a black cria - or like in Joyce's example,
> two brown ones made a black cria.? Patterns are also dominant.
>
> Some good articles on color inheritance appear on this web site.
>
> http://alpacagenetics.com/library.html
>
> Heidi Christensen
> WingNut Farm Alpacas
> Graham WA
> (253) 846-2168 or (253) 592-0200
> www.wingnut-alpacas.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

__._,_.___
Message posts are the opinion of individuals posting and are not necessarily endorsed or approved by Yahoo! or the moderator of this group. The purpose of this discussion group is to ensure that all points of view can be aired. It is the responsbilty of all individuals who post to treat others with respect and civility.
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posted by Chaddo at 1:34 PM 0 comments

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: Colors


"For example, two years ago my best female
(dark brown) was bred to wonderful dual registered male (medium
brown). Expecting a brown alpaca, eh? Not on your life. I got a
beautiful true black, with only one true black recorded in her entire
pedigree, a great grandfather. "

That paragraph above makes me wonder how close the color geneics part is in
relation to horses. In horses that cross could have resulted in many
different colors, including black. So i would not have been shocked.

Does anyone know of any sites that gives you color maping? As in it will
tell you if you breed x color to x color your results will be this, this and or
this.

**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/
2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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posted by Chaddo at 8:34 AM 0 comments

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: Colors

I agree with what Joyce says (except I disagree that ANY alpaca has perfect conformation:), but just want to add getting a good understanding of the genetics behind alpaca color inheritance is important, regardless of where you want to go with the color of your breeding program.

All alpacas have two color genes (plus a couple other genes that modify the base color), and lighter colors are dominant.? Thats why two white alpacas can have a black cria - or like in Joyce's example, two brown ones made a black cria.? Patterns are also dominant.

Some good articles on color inheritance appear on this web site.

http://alpacagenetics.com/library.html

Heidi Christensen
WingNut Farm Alpacas
Graham WA
(253) 846-2168 or (253) 592-0200
www.wingnut-alpacas.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Joyce Maley <hurricane@chinookdogs.com>
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 11:01 pm
Subject: [AlpacaTalk] Re: Colors

First, if you can't enjoy this industry, then you are doing something
wrong. Therefore, I believe that everyone in your family should get
to pick their favorite color and have fun with it. Remember, what is
popular today may be old news tomorrow, so go with what you like and
look to continually improve from where you are toward whatever your
goals are.

I didn't have a lot of money to start, so I started with a number of
dual colored alpacas, even though my personal preference is for
single colored alpacas. Most had pretty good conformation, average
fleece, no known genetically passed major faults, but with some bad
bites. A friend of mine arranged some great breedings for me, and
most of my herd is now single colored, which is what I was aiming
for. They also have improved fleece and improved bites. I am pretty
happy with conformation, but unlike most of the advertisements you
read, only a few of my alpacas are "perfect". I'm happy with my
program though. I focused on improving quality rather than focusing
on specific colors. I used herdsires where I could get the most bang
for my buck in improving my herd. That meant I didn't always use the
biggest names in the industry, but it does seem to help marketing if
you have those big names in the last couple of generations of your
offspring's lineage, so you need to find a balance. I am continuing
to focus on bringing in some bigger names, but only if they can
improve on the characteristics that need to be improved upon. My
next step will be trying to add predictability to color production,
so I will probably start breeding to a male colored the same as the
female to see if I can start building specific lines that produce
predominately single colored alpacas of a color that is predictable.

My personal feeling is that you should hold off on buying a stud
until you have done a few breedings. You really don't know where
your herd will have taken you in the first few years. I know that I
sell my females with free breedings, and I'm sure others do to. I
believe that most people probably let you select from several, and
maybe all, of their studs. I would guess that most let you use those
breedings on any animals you personally own, but make sure you have
that clearly defined in your contract.

Again, you just have to build your own plan on where you want to go,
and adjust as your go, as nature always seems to want to do something
completely unexpected. For example, two years ago my best female
(dark brown) was bred to wonderful dual registered male (medium
brown). Expecting a brown alpaca, eh? Not on your life. I got a
beautiful true black, with only one true black recorded in her entire
pedigree, a great grandfather. I didn't have a black alpaca in my
entire herd so I was excited to finally have one. Then what was did
nature add to that? She grew up with a bad bite--the other two born
that year have beautiful bites. Oh well, just another thing to focus
on for next generation. I really love having that true black girl.
Would I have rather had a brown alpaca with a good bite? Probably
not. Things have a way of working themselves out. I didn't plan for
her, but she was nature's way of telling me that no matter how much I
plan, nature caries the trump card!

Have fun!

Joyce Maley
Hurricane Alpacas
www.myalpacas.com

--- In AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com, AmyJoLabbe@... wrote:
>
> We are still getting ready to build our herd. Cant even call it a
herd, it
> will be so small. We have decided on 6 females to start.
>
> Color questions....what is most desirable for sale? What color
babies are
> selling best? That is if quality to quality the animals are
identical, what
> color will sell best.
>
> Also, at some point we would like to consider gaining a stud or
two. Are
> there more desirable colors should we have a mixed herd of females?
So far my
> son has said he wants and all black and my daughter a light fawn.
We are
> figuring two whites. My favorite are the greys and the patterned.
So maybe one of
> those too. Considering all the colors, what would be the ideal male
color in
> order to produce marketable babies and fiber?
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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posted by Chaddo at 8:01 AM 0 comments