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Monday, February 16, 2009

Re: [AlpacaTalk] My Boy Won't Eat Grain - Help!

Pia, The "bunking" under the hay feeder rang a bell with me - not that I think it's a symptom.  I also have a 4 month old male cria that bunks under the hay feeder.  He was one that for some reason one day just caught my attention and I couldn't figure out what was different.  We were scheduled to weigh everyone in anticipation of the monthly shot and were shocked to find that he had not gained any weight from the previous month.  Now I really watched him and noticed that every so often he would gingerly put his rear right foot down and sometimes it would be his rear left foot....The AHA moment - a Vit D deficiency.  As I don't usually do injections, I immediately gave him the oral ADE liquid.  He gait was improved within days, his appetite within a week and he no longer bunks under the hay feeder   Two and a half weeks later, he weighs 43 pounds.  The vet was scheduled here for other things and I requested a Vit D injection which will be
repeated in a month until Spring and the sun returns.
 
The lack of activity and weight gain would have me looking at Vit D issue instead of a Thyroid issue.  Kathy

Kathy & Earl Klay
Jefferson Laurel Farm
8181 Havens Road
Blacklick, Ohio 43004
(614) 855-9194

--- On Mon, 2/16/09, Pia Al-Ubaidi <fioridelcamposuris@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Pia Al-Ubaidi <fioridelcamposuris@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] My Boy Won't Eat Grain - Help!
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, February 16, 2009, 1:08 PM

Hi Heather, my boy stopped gaining weight in November and has been wearing a coat the entire time.  I don't know about the ADEB paste.  Right now he weighs about 40 some odd pounds right now.  Mom is average sized, but not on the larger side like some of my other dams.  Dad weighs about 190 - 200#.  He is eating plenty of hay, is constantly chewing his cud, and is getting loads of milk still from mom (evidenced by his messy lips after nursing! :-) He's just not interested in grain, the creep feeder, or playing for the last number of weeks....  He did start bunking under the hay feeder in November, and as you know a lot of hay collects there.  It's always seemed like he liked it there because it was warmer, even with his coat on....

Pia
 
Best regards,
Pia M. Al-Ubaidi
Fiori del Campo Suri Alpacas

____________ _________ _________ __

I do agree about the Thyro-L, that's not really something to treat
with unless it's medically necessary - prescribed by the vet. That's
why it's not an over the counter item! :) And checking for E mac is a
good idea.

Does your farm give crias ADEB12 paste? That should be done at least
monthly, especially in the cold and less sunny months. It does help
stimulate appetite and does furnish some calories.

So how much does your boy weight right now? If his body score seems
good, there may well NOT be a problem. He is likely to be cold if he
doesn't have a cria coat on. Suris are susceptible to cold because
they don't have that fluffy fleece at the topline. If he weighs 50
lbs, that's quite normal. We like to see 60 lb weight by 6 months,
generally.

Also, some crias don't have an interest in pellets even at 6 months.
It's frustrating to the humans, but there's not a lot to do except
try to convince them that they're tasty! We've even had some
weanlings who weren't too quick to show interest in pellets.

Another thought, he may be a small alpaca. We have a one or two crias
who, even with good appetite and energy levels, normal bloods, just
turned out to be on the small side. They do continue growth until 5
years of age, so you can't know what his full size will be at 4 1/2
months.

Finally, all crias do grow at different rates. Mothers' milk
production rates differ, so crias of the same age won't always be the
same size. We have one 8 month old here, who is as big as our 18
month olds. No kidding! And we have a little 6 month old who is a
good 10 lbs or more smaller than a 5 month old. But they're all doing
fine, in their own way.

Heather

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posted by Chaddo at 11:09 AM 0 comments

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [AlpacaTalk] My Boy Won't Eat Grain - Help!



Hi Pia,
I would recommend following up on the vitamin D. His lack of
activity relative to our weather is not necessarily surprising, but not
gaining weight since November combined with his lack of weight gain is a
big red flag.  Ricketts would be a major consideration since it is
winter, he is coated, and he is a royal barn potato. He is at high
risk. Heather's idea about giving him a probiotic paste with
Vitamin D in it is a good one.

A chem panel, fecal (insist
on Ohio State),  CBC, and thyroid test, would be where
I would be going right now. To make the grain a bit more inticing and to
even enhance his use of all of his calories, you might want to top dress
with Diamond V, a yeast product that is very good at helping ruminants and
other species to better utilize feed. It is also naturally high in B
vitamins that can help increase appetite. They love the taste and
smell.

The test results will give you clues for how to proceed
from here. If they all prove negative, you may want to consider a rumen
transfer. He may not have the right flora in his gut to help him
effectively digest what he is consuming.

Lastly, don't be
fooled by milk moustaches. Just because there is one, does not mean that
he is getting enough. He may not be getting as much milk as everyone
assumes, but at this point, you would have a hard time getting another
source of milk in him...just something to keep in the back of your mind
for the next cria this dam has.

Good luck and keep us
posted,

Laurel

Laurel Shouvlin
Bluebird Hills
Farm
Springfield, Ohio
937-206-3936
www.bluebirdhills.com
bluebirdhills@voyager.net

> Hi Heather, my boy stopped gaining weight
in November and has been wearing
> a coat the entire
time.  I don't know about the ADEB paste.  Right now he
> weighs about 40 some odd pounds right now.  Mom is average
sized, but
> not on the larger side like some of my other
dams.  Dad weighs about 190 -
> 200#.  He is
eating plenty of hay, is constantly chewing his cud, and is
> getting loads of milk still from mom (evidenced by his messy lips
after
> nursing! :-) He's just not interested in grain, the creep
feeder, or
> playing for the last number of weeks....  He
did start bunking under the
> hay feeder in November, and as you
know a lot of hay collects there.  It's
> always seemed like
he liked it there because it was warmer, even with his
>
coat on....
>
> Pia
>  
> Best
regards,
> Pia M. Al-Ubaidi
> Fiori del Campo Suri
Alpacas
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
>
> I do agree about
the Thyro-L, that's not really something to treat
> with unless
it's medically necessary - prescribed by the vet. That's
> why
it's not an over the counter item! :) And checking for E mac is a
> good idea.
>
> Does your farm give crias ADEB12
paste? That should be done at least
> monthly, especially in the
cold and less sunny months. It does help
> stimulate appetite and
does furnish some calories.
>
> So how much does your
boy weight right now? If his body score seems
> good, there may
well NOT be a problem. He is likely to be cold if he
> doesn't
have a cria coat on. Suris are susceptible to cold because
> they
don't have that fluffy fleece at the topline. If he weighs 50
>
lbs, that's quite normal. We like to see 60 lb weight by 6 months,
> generally.
>
> Also, some crias don't have an
interest in pellets even at 6 months.
> It's frustrating to the
humans, but there's not a lot to do except
> try to convince them
that they're tasty! We've even had some
> weanlings who weren't
too quick to show interest in pellets.
>
> Another
thought, he may be a small alpaca. We have a one or two crias
>
who, even with good appetite and energy levels, normal bloods, just
> turned out to be on the small side. They do continue growth until 5

> years of age, so you can't know what his full size will be at 4
1/2
> months.
>
> Finally, all crias do grow at
different rates. Mothers' milk
> production rates differ, so
crias of the same age won't always be the
> same size. We have
one 8 month old here, who is as big as our 18
> month olds. No
kidding! And we have a little 6 month old who is a
> good 10 lbs
or more smaller than a 5 month old. But they're all doing
> fine,
in their own way.
>
> Heather
>

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posted by Chaddo at 10:31 AM 0 comments

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [AlpacaTalk] My Boy Won't Eat Grain - Help!

Hmm. I agree also that checking for EPE is in order. And having a
blood panel done. The ultrasound of the spleen is still in my mind,
we lost a cria who had a clean blood panel, but had a bacterial
infection in her spleen, caused the liver to rupture. Fecals and
bloods came back normal.

She also stopped gaining, lost interest in pellets but did eat plenty
of hay.

Heather

On Feb 16, 2009, at 10:08 AM, Pia Al-Ubaidi wrote:

> Hi Heather, my boy stopped gaining weight in November and has been
> wearing a coat the entire time. I don't know about the ADEB
> paste. Right now he weighs about 40 some odd pounds right now.
> Mom is average sized, but not on the larger side like some of my
> other dams. Dad weighs about 190 - 200#. He is eating plenty of
> hay, is constantly chewing his cud, and is getting loads of milk
> still from mom (evidenced by his messy lips after nursing! :-) He's
> just not interested in grain, the creep feeder, or playing for the
> last number of weeks.... He did start bunking under the hay feeder
> in November, and as you know a lot of hay collects there. It's
> always seemed like he liked it there because it was warmer, even
> with his coat on....
>
> Pia
>
> Best regards,
> Pia M. Al-Ubaidi
> Fiori del Campo Suri Alpacas

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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posted by Chaddo at 10:21 AM 0 comments

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [AlpacaTalk] My Boy Won't Eat Grain - Help!

Hi Heather, my boy stopped gaining weight in November and has been wearing a coat the entire time.  I don't know about the ADEB paste.  Right now he weighs about 40 some odd pounds right now.  Mom is average sized, but not on the larger side like some of my other dams.  Dad weighs about 190 - 200#.  He is eating plenty of hay, is constantly chewing his cud, and is getting loads of milk still from mom (evidenced by his messy lips after nursing! :-) He's just not interested in grain, the creep feeder, or playing for the last number of weeks....  He did start bunking under the hay feeder in November, and as you know a lot of hay collects there.  It's always seemed like he liked it there because it was warmer, even with his coat on....

Pia
 
Best regards,
Pia M. Al-Ubaidi
Fiori del Campo Suri Alpacas

________________________________

I do agree about the Thyro-L, that's not really something to treat
with unless it's medically necessary - prescribed by the vet. That's
why it's not an over the counter item! :) And checking for E mac is a
good idea.

Does your farm give crias ADEB12 paste? That should be done at least
monthly, especially in the cold and less sunny months. It does help
stimulate appetite and does furnish some calories.

So how much does your boy weight right now? If his body score seems
good, there may well NOT be a problem. He is likely to be cold if he
doesn't have a cria coat on. Suris are susceptible to cold because
they don't have that fluffy fleece at the topline. If he weighs 50
lbs, that's quite normal. We like to see 60 lb weight by 6 months,
generally.

Also, some crias don't have an interest in pellets even at 6 months.
It's frustrating to the humans, but there's not a lot to do except
try to convince them that they're tasty! We've even had some
weanlings who weren't too quick to show interest in pellets.

Another thought, he may be a small alpaca. We have a one or two crias
who, even with good appetite and energy levels, normal bloods, just
turned out to be on the small side. They do continue growth until 5
years of age, so you can't know what his full size will be at 4 1/2
months.

Finally, all crias do grow at different rates. Mothers' milk
production rates differ, so crias of the same age won't always be the
same size. We have one 8 month old here, who is as big as our 18
month olds. No kidding! And we have a little 6 month old who is a
good 10 lbs or more smaller than a 5 month old. But they're all doing
fine, in their own way.

Heather

________________________________
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posted by Chaddo at 10:08 AM 0 comments

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [AlpacaTalk] My Boy Won't Eat Grain - Help!

Susan, yes boy has been outfitted with a coat since the cooler weather has set in.  As far as who is running the fecals, it would be our local camelid vet and she is quite good and extremely knowledgeable about camelids..... we're lucky in that respect!

Pia

Best regards,
Pia M. Al-Ubaidi
Fiori del Campo Suri Alpacas

________________________________

I admit that I haven't followed this thread real closely, but a couple of things pop into my head. first, the cold weather easily saps the calories of a lot of animals, but suris a little more. if he isn't wearing a coat, you might want to check on that and put one on him when the temps fall below about 55 degrees. Secondly, who is running the fecals? Mine looked real good when the local vet was doing them, but when I started using a lab where they were more familiar with the specific requirements of camelid fecal analysis, things looked very different. It felt like emac showed up out of the blue along with strongyles. If the person doing the fecals is not well-versed in camelid fecal preparation and analysis, you could be getting false negatives. OSU does a good job or a good camelid vet familiar with some of the idiosyncrasies of our guys poo.

good luck and hope that things work out soon. I would be more concerned if he wasn't eating hay and grass. I've had them go for the pellets right away and then some could care less until they're 8 or 9 months old........it' s so individual!

Susan

Susan Forman
Dewey Morning Alpacas
Washington Court House, OH 43160
740-636-1899
http://www.alpacana tion.com/ deweymorning. asp
Home of Huey, Louie, and Dewey!

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posted by Chaddo at 10:02 AM 0 comments

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] My Boy Won't Eat Grain - Help!

wanted to again stress.....don't just jump the gun and treat any slow
growing cria for epe. Check fecals first, then check bloodwork for
abnormaliites. Don't let the condition go unchecked for a long time. If it is a low
thyroid.....treatment must be started before 9-10 months of age for a good
prognosis.

Don't forget....a cria can have more than one issue. Don't assume a
positive fecal is the whole issue. If you treat for intestinal parasites and
don't see improvement, proceed with diagnostics. An animal compromised
with intestinal parasites is a perfect candidate for flourishing epe also.

Carolyn Marquette,

PartyLite Gifts _PartyLite.com_ (http://partylite.com/en-us/Default.aspx)
_Carolyn Marquette`s personal website_
(http://www.partylite.biz/sites/carolynm)

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2251 Sesame St
Mogadore, OH 44260
330-699-2182
330-618-9769 cell
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
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posted by Chaddo at 9:47 AM 0 comments

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] My Boy Won't Eat Grain - Help!

Pia, does the dam get a proportionately higher percentage of feed (both forage and supplement) than others in the herd? Is it possible that he&#39;s getting what he needs nutritionally from Mom and doesn&#39;t need supplementation? Note too that sometimes they just don&#39;t like the taste (like sole people don&#39;t like chocolate, if you can imagine that!). I&#39;ve had crias who didn&#39;t start tasting supplement until long after weaning and going into production themselves. They just didn&#39;t need it, I guess. JUDITH KORFF, LADYSONG SURIS AND SEBASTOPOLS, RANDOLPH, NY

Pia Al-Ubaidi wrote:
> So far the fecals have been negative.  From day 1, my boy has just refused to go in the creep feeder, didn't even seem curious about it.  When offered a bowl of grain, he also has no interest in it.  I am concerned about the farm using Thyro L in the absence of a blood test and I am going to check on that.  I know the farm manager was going to start him on a concoction similar to the one referenced below, and I'm hoping that will help as well.
> It's really weird, but this little guy has always appeared to be a real "momma's boy" and I've always had the impression that he just has no interest in growing up.  It's almost as if he would prefer just to stay a cria so he can stay with his mom.  Strange indeed, but frustrating because from the moment of birth it was obvious he had strong herdsire potential!
> Reading all the responses to my post with great interest and appreciation,
> Pia
>  
> Best regards,
> Pia M. Al-Ubaidi
> Fiori del Campo Suri Alpacas
> Adding to what Heather said. If your boy starts losing weight. Check for Emac (the boarding farm should know to check for this parasite) and also for Epe. that is a blood test to see if he has that blood parasite. Someone will know the actual real name for it. but if you google it with alpaca you will find articles on it. it can slow their weight gain also. But if he doesn't eat grain its a possibility that he has to get some more nutrition from somewhere. We have blended our 18% grain with dyne (high caloric supplement) and a little karosyrup (just for taste) till it's a milk consistency. and then we have used the feeding syringe and put some in the crias mouth. We have had quite a bit of luck on that. Oh and then as soon as they are done eating that we stick them in the creep feeder where there is freechoice grain for the crias. Once they take to the grain the weight usually starts coming back on. (baring any medical issues). I would test him at the
> same time of starting a feeding regiment.
> Michele Armour
> Rosehaven Alpacas
> callicoon, ny
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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posted by Chaddo at 9:45 AM 0 comments

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] My Boy Won't Eat Grain - Help!

I admit that I haven't followed this thread real closely, but a couple of things pop into my head. first, the cold weather easily saps the calories of a lot of animals, but suris a little more. if he isn't wearing a coat, you might want to check on that and put one on him when the temps fall below about 55 degrees. Secondly, who is running the fecals? Mine looked real good when the local vet was doing them, but when I started using a lab where they were more familiar with the specific requirements of camelid fecal analysis, things looked very different. It felt like emac showed up out of the blue along with strongyles. If the person doing the fecals is not well-versed in camelid fecal preparation and analysis, you could be getting false negatives. OSU does a good job or a good camelid vet familiar with some of the idiosyncrasies of our guys poo.

good luck and hope that things work out soon. I would be more concerned if he wasn't eating hay and grass. I've had them go for the pellets right away and then some could care less until they're 8 or 9 months old........it's so individual!

Susan

Susan Forman
Dewey Morning Alpacas
Washington Court House, OH 43160
740-636-1899
http://www.alpacanation.com/deweymorning.asp
Home of Huey, Louie, and Dewey!

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posted by Chaddo at 9:43 AM 0 comments

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [AlpacaTalk] My Boy Won't Eat Grain - Help!

I do agree about the Thyro-L, that's not really something to treat
with unless it's medically necessary - prescribed by the vet. That's
why it's not an over the counter item! :) And checking for E mac is a
good idea.

Does your farm give crias ADEB12 paste? That should be done at least
monthly, especially in the cold and less sunny months. It does help
stimulate appetite and does furnish some calories.

So how much does your boy weight right now? If his body score seems
good, there may well NOT be a problem. He is likely to be cold if he
doesn't have a cria coat on. Suris are susceptible to cold because
they don't have that fluffy fleece at the topline. If he weighs 50
lbs, that's quite normal. We like to see 60 lb weight by 6 months,
generally.

Also, some crias don't have an interest in pellets even at 6 months.
It's frustrating to the humans, but there's not a lot to do except
try to convince them that they're tasty! We've even had some
weanlings who weren't too quick to show interest in pellets.

Another thought, he may be a small alpaca. We have a one or two crias
who, even with good appetite and energy levels, normal bloods, just
turned out to be on the small side. They do continue growth until 5
years of age, so you can't know what his full size will be at 4 1/2
months.

Finally, all crias do grow at different rates. Mothers' milk
production rates differ, so crias of the same age won't always be the
same size. We have one 8 month old here, who is as big as our 18
month olds. No kidding! And we have a little 6 month old who is a
good 10 lbs or more smaller than a 5 month old. But they're all doing
fine, in their own way.

Heather

On Feb 16, 2009, at 9:22 AM, Pia Al-Ubaidi wrote:

> So far the fecals have been negative. From day 1, my boy has just
> refused to go in the creep feeder, didn't even seem curious about
> it. When offered a bowl of grain, he also has no interest in it.
> I am concerned about the farm using Thyro L in the absence of a
> blood test and I am going to check on that. I know the farm
> manager was going to start him on a concoction similar to the one
> referenced below, and I'm hoping that will help as well.
>
> It's really weird, but this little guy has always appeared to be a
> real "momma's boy" and I've always had the impression that he just
> has no interest in growing up. It's almost as if he would prefer
> just to stay a cria so he can stay with his mom. Strange indeed,
> but frustrating because from the moment of birth it was obvious he
> had strong herdsire potential!
>
> Reading all the responses to my post with great interest and
> appreciation,
> Pia
>
> Best regards,
> Pia M. Al-Ubaidi
> Fiori del Campo Suri Alpacas

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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posted by Chaddo at 9:42 AM 0 comments