Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Wednesday, October 17, 2007

RE: [AlpacaTalk] Re: was AFCNA now secrets

Hi Floyd,

In recognition of Oscar Wilde's birthday yesterday, I will answer your question like this.

"Disobedience, in the eyes of anyone who has read history, is man's original virtue. It is through disobedience and rebellion that progress has been made."

No, it has nothing to do with AOBA whatsoever. A private venture. No details are worked out yet, so I don't have any for you. When have more information, you can be sure it will be shared ASAP.


Stephanie


Stephanie

Floyd Romanik <floyd@indiansummeralpacas.com> wrote:
Stephanie,

Will this happen through the AOBA Fiber Committees?

I also believe someone asked if there was any connection between AOBA and
AFCNA. If I responded to the wrong site or someone else has answered this
sorry for the repetition. If I recall correctly AOBA gave the AFCNA $10,000
for start-up funding in exchange for a permanent non-voting AFCNA Board
seat.

Floyd and Ana Romanik
Indi9an Summer Alpacas
Chepachet, RI

Phone: (401) 568-7759

_____

From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Stardust Alpacas
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 1:23 PM
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: was AFCNA now secrets

That would require paying money to an organization
that will not provide the products (or yarn) that we
used to get when AFCNA was new. They processed the
fiber and sent it back to you in skeins and cones. Not
anymore. I would never pay money to a company that
doesn't offer what I want and is shady in the way it
deals with questions about how it does business.

This whole conversation is going nowhere. AFCNA won't
budge and talking with other farms doesn't solve
anything because AFCNA won't budge.

A new solution to the problem will present itself in
the future that has nothing to do with AFCNA.
Processing with sorting will be provided (including
2nd and 3rds-there are products to be made with them
also) with the option of getting yarn back and/or
products.

Everything will work out just fine for everyone.

Stephanie

--- fortryan <maasrj@netzero. <mailto:maasrj%40netzero.net> net> wrote:

> Asking questions should be encouraged. My only
> complaint is with the
> call for involving the FTC (or any other regulating
> body). And I know
> this wasn't your thing Heather, so it's awkward
> debating an issue when
> the initiating side isn't present.. Anyway, I'm
> sufficiently jaded
> when it comes to politics but not for small
> member-run organizations.
> If we're to the point that we need to involve an
> outside regulator in
> our internal activities (the FTC here or the courts
> with AOBA) then
> maybe it's time for that organization to be put to
> pasture and start
> fresh. However, if we're to that point with member
> questions and BOD
> evasiveness, then why not simply elect members that
> are sympathetic to
> the will of the majority? Of course in this case,
> that takes a non-
> conflict-of-interest member with the desire to run
> and represent the
> membership, which I know is not always easy to find.
>
> I'm not willing to give up on AFCNA. I think it's a
> very valuable and
> important piece of the puzzle for our industry. If
> there is truth to
> the claims being made, then let's do something about
> it as voting
> members of the organization, not as writers of
> letters to the FTC.
>
> If you're not a member and you won't become one
> because you think the
> organization is run poorly, then how can you hope to
> have your
> questions heard? Be a member if you think the
> organization is valid
> and of value (regardless of the current board
> members), then direct it
> with your vote.
>
> Ryan
>
> --- In AlpacaTalk@yahoogro <mailto:AlpacaTalk%40yahoogroups.com> ups.com,
Heather Zeleny
> <alpacatalk@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I don't know. I just don't feel comfortable with
> the thought of
> giving
> > my money and fleece to an organization that is so
> secretive.
> >
> > Heather
>
>
>

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posted by Chaddo at 8:09 PM 0 comments

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: was AFCNA now secrets

The problem is pricing. The advantage to AFCNA is that they have such large amounts that the fiber processing is cheaper than for you and me. That is the entire issue, regardless of any secrets...

We will probably have our fiber processed in Canada because we have about 2000# to have processed and can't afford US rates. The other issue is that many places do not spin the fiber tight enough and fine enough to use with our Passap e6000 knitting machine. It is a production knitting machine that makes nice fabric and it can't use thick yarn. We have yarn from many different places and they are not sorted prior to spinning and the yarn is of a lower quality than we are looking for. There are many different qualities when it comes to fiber mills and they are not all good. We can tell that from some of the yarn we have received back.

We have bulky machines too that will accept thicker yarns, but it is easier to just have it all made into the same thickness and use another strand of yarn if we want it bulkier. The difference between machine knitting and hand knitting are like comparing apples and oranges.

We are not using Canby because of price.




Stephanie


"M.Korshoj" <mkorshoj@comcast.net> wrote:
There is a simple solution...don't join AFCNA and seek out the processor that will work it up as you want it either yarn, rovings, cones or top. I think Fantasy Fiber in Canby can do all of that although when I was last out to take her more fleece, she was buried under in fiber! I am sure that all the processors will take your fleece and give you back whatever you want except for finished goods. And some might even do that.

I am trying to decide if I want to blend alpaca with wool or another type of fiber. Would like to try it with Blue Faced Leicester.

Wondering what favorite blends might be from paca people and why? Softness, durability, color, etc.

Margie

Margie Korshoj
mkorshoj@comcast.net

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posted by Chaddo at 3:43 PM 0 comments

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: was AFCNA now secrets

There is a simple solution...don't join AFCNA and seek out the processor that will work it up as you want it either yarn, rovings, cones or top. I think Fantasy Fiber in Canby can do all of that although when I was last out to take her more fleece, she was buried under in fiber! I am sure that all the processors will take your fleece and give you back whatever you want except for finished goods. And some might even do that.

I am trying to decide if I want to blend alpaca with wool or another type of fiber. Would like to try it with Blue Faced Leicester.

Wondering what favorite blends might be from paca people and why? Softness, durability, color, etc.

Margie

Margie Korshoj
mkorshoj@comcast.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Message posts are the opinion of individuals posting and are not necessarily endorsed or approved by Yahoo! or the moderator of this group. The purpose of this discussion group is to ensure that all points of view can be aired. It is the responsbilty of all individuals who post to treat others with respect and civility.
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posted by Chaddo at 2:12 PM 0 comments

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

RE: [AlpacaTalk] Re: was AFCNA now secrets

Stephanie,

Will this happen through the AOBA Fiber Committees?

I also believe someone asked if there was any connection between AOBA and
AFCNA. If I responded to the wrong site or someone else has answered this
sorry for the repetition. If I recall correctly AOBA gave the AFCNA $10,000
for start-up funding in exchange for a permanent non-voting AFCNA Board
seat.

Floyd and Ana Romanik
Indi9an Summer Alpacas
Chepachet, RI

Phone: (401) 568-7759

_____

From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Stardust Alpacas
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 1:23 PM
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: was AFCNA now secrets

That would require paying money to an organization
that will not provide the products (or yarn) that we
used to get when AFCNA was new. They processed the
fiber and sent it back to you in skeins and cones. Not
anymore. I would never pay money to a company that
doesn't offer what I want and is shady in the way it
deals with questions about how it does business.

This whole conversation is going nowhere. AFCNA won't
budge and talking with other farms doesn't solve
anything because AFCNA won't budge.

A new solution to the problem will present itself in
the future that has nothing to do with AFCNA.
Processing with sorting will be provided (including
2nd and 3rds-there are products to be made with them
also) with the option of getting yarn back and/or
products.

Everything will work out just fine for everyone.

Stephanie

--- fortryan <maasrj@netzero. <mailto:maasrj%40netzero.net> net> wrote:

> Asking questions should be encouraged. My only
> complaint is with the
> call for involving the FTC (or any other regulating
> body). And I know
> this wasn't your thing Heather, so it's awkward
> debating an issue when
> the initiating side isn't present.. Anyway, I'm
> sufficiently jaded
> when it comes to politics but not for small
> member-run organizations.
> If we're to the point that we need to involve an
> outside regulator in
> our internal activities (the FTC here or the courts
> with AOBA) then
> maybe it's time for that organization to be put to
> pasture and start
> fresh. However, if we're to that point with member
> questions and BOD
> evasiveness, then why not simply elect members that
> are sympathetic to
> the will of the majority? Of course in this case,
> that takes a non-
> conflict-of-interest member with the desire to run
> and represent the
> membership, which I know is not always easy to find.
>
> I'm not willing to give up on AFCNA. I think it's a
> very valuable and
> important piece of the puzzle for our industry. If
> there is truth to
> the claims being made, then let's do something about
> it as voting
> members of the organization, not as writers of
> letters to the FTC.
>
> If you're not a member and you won't become one
> because you think the
> organization is run poorly, then how can you hope to
> have your
> questions heard? Be a member if you think the
> organization is valid
> and of value (regardless of the current board
> members), then direct it
> with your vote.
>
> Ryan
>
> --- In AlpacaTalk@yahoogro <mailto:AlpacaTalk%40yahoogroups.com> ups.com,
Heather Zeleny
> <alpacatalk@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I don't know. I just don't feel comfortable with
> the thought of
> giving
> > my money and fleece to an organization that is so
> secretive.
> >
> > Heather
>
>
>

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posted by Chaddo at 10:50 AM 0 comments

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: was AFCNA now secrets

That would require paying money to an organization
that will not provide the products (or yarn) that we
used to get when AFCNA was new. They processed the
fiber and sent it back to you in skeins and cones. Not
anymore. I would never pay money to a company that
doesn't offer what I want and is shady in the way it
deals with questions about how it does business.

This whole conversation is going nowhere. AFCNA won't
budge and talking with other farms doesn't solve
anything because AFCNA won't budge.

A new solution to the problem will present itself in
the future that has nothing to do with AFCNA.
Processing with sorting will be provided (including
2nd and 3rds-there are products to be made with them
also) with the option of getting yarn back and/or
products.

Everything will work out just fine for everyone.

Stephanie

--- fortryan <maasrj@netzero.net> wrote:

> Asking questions should be encouraged. My only
> complaint is with the
> call for involving the FTC (or any other regulating
> body). And I know
> this wasn't your thing Heather, so it's awkward
> debating an issue when
> the initiating side isn't present.. Anyway, I'm
> sufficiently jaded
> when it comes to politics but not for small
> member-run organizations.
> If we're to the point that we need to involve an
> outside regulator in
> our internal activities (the FTC here or the courts
> with AOBA) then
> maybe it's time for that organization to be put to
> pasture and start
> fresh. However, if we're to that point with member
> questions and BOD
> evasiveness, then why not simply elect members that
> are sympathetic to
> the will of the majority? Of course in this case,
> that takes a non-
> conflict-of-interest member with the desire to run
> and represent the
> membership, which I know is not always easy to find.
>
> I'm not willing to give up on AFCNA. I think it's a
> very valuable and
> important piece of the puzzle for our industry. If
> there is truth to
> the claims being made, then let's do something about
> it as voting
> members of the organization, not as writers of
> letters to the FTC.
>
> If you're not a member and you won't become one
> because you think the
> organization is run poorly, then how can you hope to
> have your
> questions heard? Be a member if you think the
> organization is valid
> and of value (regardless of the current board
> members), then direct it
> with your vote.
>
> Ryan
>
> --- In AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com, Heather Zeleny
> <alpacatalk@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I don't know. I just don't feel comfortable with
> the thought of
> giving
> > my money and fleece to an organization that is so
> secretive.
> >
> > Heather
>
>
>

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posted by Chaddo at 10:22 AM 0 comments

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] was AFCNA now secrets



Heather,
Read Laurel's message again.
She didn't say that Elwin
shouldn't disclose the conversations. She stated it would be wrong of
AFCNA BOD members or John to disclose the private conversations.

> I have to tell you that forwarding emails without permission
is not
> wrong, nor is making postal mail public. It is the
property of the
> recipient and they are free to do whatever they
wish with it. That is
> the law on that subject. And likewise,
Elwin is free to disclose
> information he received in a
telephone conversation.
>
> Still, AFCNA is owned by its
members. Members have the right to know
> what's going on with
their co-op and their product, from raw fleece
> stage to
finished product, and everywhere in between.
>
> I have
not been involved in discussions on other points brought up so I
> won't comment on those. It just appears that the BOD of AFCNA is

> holding their manufacturing so secret, secret from members and

> prospective members alike, that they are doing themselves and
their
> members a disservice. Other textile manufacturers don't
keep things as
> hush hush as AFCNA does. It really looks
questionable. I've never seen
> anyone so secretive unless they
are operating outside the law. Now, I
> am not making that
allegation about AFCNA, I'm just saying it makes
> them look very
suspicious.
>
>
> Heather
>
>
Heather Zeleny
> West Wind Alpacas
> Eugene, OR
>
> Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece
> Home of
Avatar's West Wind Scirocco, El Bello's Padré, Pluro grandson
> Sienna Illusion, and true black full Bolivian Cosby of Chelsea
Farms!
> http://www.westwindalpacas.com/
>
http://www.alpacanation.com/westwind.asp
>
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AlpacaTalk/join
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Shari Pritchard
Autumn Sky Alpacas
21525 Berchtold Road
Chillicothe, IL 61523
309-360-5311
email to: autumn@mtco.com
http://www.autumnsky-alpacas.com or
http://www.alpacanation.com/autumnsky.asp
"Breeding For Genetic
Gain In Central Illinois!"
 
Your Camelidynamics
Handler! Call for Information.

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This
communication may include confidential information and is intended only
for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient,
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose, store or copy
the e-mail or any related attachments.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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posted by Chaddo at 8:28 AM 0 comments

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] was AFCNA now secrets

I have to tell you that forwarding emails without permission is not
wrong, nor is making postal mail public. It is the property of the
recipient and they are free to do whatever they wish with it. That is
the law on that subject. And likewise, Elwin is free to disclose
information he received in a telephone conversation.

Still, AFCNA is owned by its members. Members have the right to know
what's going on with their co-op and their product, from raw fleece
stage to finished product, and everywhere in between.

I have not been involved in discussions on other points brought up so I
won't comment on those. It just appears that the BOD of AFCNA is
holding their manufacturing so secret, secret from members and
prospective members alike, that they are doing themselves and their
members a disservice. Other textile manufacturers don't keep things as
hush hush as AFCNA does. It really looks questionable. I've never seen
anyone so secretive unless they are operating outside the law. Now, I
am not making that allegation about AFCNA, I'm just saying it makes
them look very suspicious.

Heather

Heather Zeleny
West Wind Alpacas
Eugene, OR

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece
Home of Avatar's West Wind Scirocco, El Bello's Padré, Pluro grandson
Sienna Illusion, and true black full Bolivian Cosby of Chelsea Farms!
http://www.westwindalpacas.com/
http://www.alpacanation.com/westwind.asp
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AlpacaTalk/join

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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posted by Chaddo at 8:08 AM 0 comments

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[AlpacaTalk] Re: was AFCNA now secrets

Asking questions should be encouraged. My only complaint is with the
call for involving the FTC (or any other regulating body). And I know
this wasn't your thing Heather, so it's awkward debating an issue when
the initiating side isn't present.. Anyway, I'm sufficiently jaded
when it comes to politics but not for small member-run organizations.
If we're to the point that we need to involve an outside regulator in
our internal activities (the FTC here or the courts with AOBA) then
maybe it's time for that organization to be put to pasture and start
fresh. However, if we're to that point with member questions and BOD
evasiveness, then why not simply elect members that are sympathetic to
the will of the majority? Of course in this case, that takes a non-
conflict-of-interest member with the desire to run and represent the
membership, which I know is not always easy to find.

I'm not willing to give up on AFCNA. I think it's a very valuable and
important piece of the puzzle for our industry. If there is truth to
the claims being made, then let's do something about it as voting
members of the organization, not as writers of letters to the FTC.

If you're not a member and you won't become one because you think the
organization is run poorly, then how can you hope to have your
questions heard? Be a member if you think the organization is valid
and of value (regardless of the current board members), then direct it
with your vote.

Ryan

--- In AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com, Heather Zeleny <alpacatalk@...>
wrote:
>
> I don't know. I just don't feel comfortable with the thought of
giving
> my money and fleece to an organization that is so secretive.
>
> Heather

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posted by Chaddo at 7:01 AM 0 comments

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] was AFCNA now secrets

Hi Heather,

There are mills in Canada and the U.S. who would like to have that information. There might be another breeder in the wings similar to the New England Fiber Pool folks who might want that information. And, yes that can hurt the business. Perhaps it is just that a competing mill might want to go and find out what equipment they use, or maybe the competing mill tries to grab up knowledgeable employees and move them away. Whatever, some call that secretive, but the business world calls it proprietary.

Let's say that AFCNA pretty well takes up all of the mill's free time processing alpaca. Competitor mill comes into the mills office and says they will pay X amount more per kilo if the mill will do theirs instead of AFCNA. Now the AFCNA is pushed out of that mill and must find another. A creative person could come up with dozens of scenarios that could hurt AFCNA.

As for the vote, I do not know anything about that. I am sure that you understand that conversations between Elwin and the AFCNA are confidential (at least I hope they are) and if John or any other board member talks about that here, that is wrong, much like forwarding emails without a person's permission.

I do not know why the AFCNA votes are not posted (never really cared) and I would agree that they should be, I guess. Years ago, I was asked if I would be interested in serving on the AFCNA. I declined because I was invovled in the process of getting a mill started here in Springfield and I knew that would or could be viewed as a conflict of interest, by members and at the time we were hoping for processing on the scale the AFCNA might be interested in. Before a rumor starts, the mill I am associated with does absolutely no business with AFCNA.

As for what John sells in his store, being on a board should not handicap someone. If John wants to sell non- AFCNA product why shouldn't he? Especially when AFCNA may not offer the same product line. The mill I am involved with has a yarn store, and they sell many different products that they have had no part in producing, including Bolivian and Peruvian alpaca yarn!

I had a conversation after church the other day with an acquaintance and we were talking about the world and people (as one often does after church). We both agreed that at our something over 50 ages we had finally concluded that 99.9% of the people out there are good at heart. Sometimes we become passionate about something and act like jerks, and we often screw up because we aren't perfect, but our hearts are usually in the right place. Conviction and passion are great things and give us enormous energy, we just need to remember (I especially need to remind myself of this) that 99.9% of the folks working as volunteers or even for pay in the alpaca industry have good intentions even if I disagree with what they are doing or how they are going about it.

Laurel

Tim & Laurel Shouvlin
Bluebird Hills Farm
3617 Derr Rd.
Springfield, Ohio 45503
bluebirdhills@voyager.net
www.bluebirdhills.com
937-206-3936

----- Original Message -----
From: Heather Zeleny
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] was AFCNA now secrets

I have yet to understand how knowing where American fleeces donated to
AFCNA is processed will hurt AFCNA or its members. I don't recall
anyone asking for pricing deals or contract info, just WHERE the stuff
was processed. And knowing where the fleece is processed will in no way
harm AFCNA or its members, as the mill is under no obligation and is
most certainly prevented from disclosing contract details. But members
have the right to know. Members voted for who they wanted to be on the
board, and their vote was tossed out the window. If the members' votes
aren't even followed, how can anyone be sure of anything that the
"co-op" is doing?

We ask questions because we have them. And we have been met with
nothing but evasiveness, and every response from John and yourself,
although I have no idea what function you serve in AFCNA, is rude,
gruff, and looks as though something is being hidden. A lot of things.
Why? I say the replies given by John plants seeds of distrust. I say he
is a liability to AFCNA.

Those are just the beginnings of the questions I have. And the more
heels are dug in and I'm told it's none of my business, and members are
told it's secret, the less eager I am to give AFCNA my membership fee
or certainly my fleece. Because frankly, I do not see how AFCNA is
helping the alpaca breeder. They don't give us what we want, so how
does that help my little portion of the breeding community?

My experience with another co-op, the Davis Food Co-op, was much
different. They publish their board meeting minutes, they have their
BOD listed in the stores and online, very easy to find, unlike AFCNA.
it took over 10 minutes to find the page that listed AFCNA's BOD, since
they can't even name the stupid page BOD! Instead it's under "Contact
AFCNA." On any other website, the "Contact" page will be a page showing
physical mail address, phone number, and email address of the company
or organization.

I don't know. I just don't feel comfortable with the thought of giving
my money and fleece to an organization that is so secretive.

Heather

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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posted by Chaddo at 6:55 AM 0 comments