RE: [AlpacaTalk] Re: silver spot vs white spot
Good evening List,
There has been considerable discussion even among the geneticists about the
different types of white spots which may exist. I don't think that is the
same genetically as "silver or gray" spots. I've seen a maroon which had a
silver spot
and he could throw gray. There is some sort of relation ship
between maroon and gray, but I don't think we know what it is yet.
Likewise, there is a relationship between fawn and gray, again, we don't yet
know what it is.
Several scientists believe that "white spot" gene that can be linked to Blue
Eyed WHITES
is different than the whole body whites or the tuxedo grays with
white in the tuxedos. Much of the discussion centers on the idea that a
white animal is not the same thing genetically as an animal with a white
spot
although, theoretically, a white animal can be hiding a "white" spot
somewhere on its body which we can't see
because the area of "white spot" is
"hidden" on the whiteness of the animal as a whole.
I think pinto is a pattern which is not a variant of "white spot" gene. We
have a line of huacaya pinto girls on our farm. Our girl, when bred to
solid white threw solid fawn, but when bred to solid light brown, threw a
pinto "spittin' image" of herself. Much anecdotal evidence has pointed to
the idea that pinto is not a "white" spot
but rather a "color" spot set out
on a white animal and thus does NOT run the same risk of throwing a BEW cria
from breeding to another pattern.
Now folks are becoming"BEW" hysterical
.even if their colored animal has a
little blue in its eyes
they are rabidly worried about having a BEW. I'm
hearing of folks who are gelding anything with any blue in its eyes
even if
it is a solid black animal. We need more information and less fear
some
careful exercise of judgment and some calculated risk taking. BEW means
that blue eyed on a WHITE animal may be problematic. It does not cast any
aspersions or risks at the colored animals with blue in their eyes.
I have a blue eyed rose gray color champion huacaya girl. She has given me
3 dark eyed crias by being bred to dark, solid quality males. She is one of
the best producers I have
every cria has ribboned in the shows and no one
has thrown BEW yet. Her fiber is spectacularly good, even at age 5 she is
still carrying a CV less than 19 and an SD under 5. She is also the
dreaded "huacaya from two suris"
and she had good enough fiber to take the
multicolor color championship at 2005 at AlpacaMania
.
have won further ribbons at the nationals and AFCNA even as a more mature
animal. I'm keeping her, blue eyes and all! She is just about the best
quality animal I have
and I've turned down offers of more than 45K for her.
We bred this MRG girl to our mb boy twide and got first a mb with white
wristlets and a white throat, then a solid bay black. Now we repeated the
breeding again and we will see what we get in April 09. That girl will
then go to Silver Sentinel who is listed as DRG for what we hope will be a
rose gray
.but you never can tell! After that, I plan to breed her to our
Avatar son, Nevada, to see what we get!
Some farms which are focusing on breeding all types of grays are finding
that gray to gray, whether "whole" gray or "tuxedo" gray is NOT throwing
either BEW the posited ¼ of the time
nor is it showing the "supposedly died
in womb bew" crias being absorbed and showing up as slipped pregnancies.
They are getting gray fairly often by breeding tuxedo grays to each other.
Not losing crias of getting BEWs.
We have a DRG Avatar son who is just starting to breed. We have used him on
our solid dark fawn girl. Cria yet to come. We used our TB (no white
ANYWHERE) male on our BB and white pinto girl. Theoretically she should
throw pinto ½ of the time
so far, that is correct. She has 2 crias
one
solid and one pinto. The next one will tell us more. Stay Tuned!
What we can and must do is keep very careful records and discuss the new
crias that come from these breedings that are so interesting in helping to
unfold the mysteries of our alpaca color genetics. Stay posted for more
information when we see more crias. The records that ARI is keeping color
wise and pattern wise are not enough in my view.
I'm rather tired of all the different colors that are called "rose gray"
I
have a "rose gray" suri male
he is a pink/copper color almost solid which is
made up of black, white, and reddish brown fibers. He has 4 white sox and a
white throat with a spot on the breast bone
indicating a tuxedo of sorts, I
think, rather than any "white spot". He, too, is just old enough to breed
and we have some girls who will have his crias
that is one type of "rose
gray". We have another huacaya girl who is the classic pearly gray with
cinnamon highlights all over
and she is considered a rose gray. We have the
Avatar son, he too is considered to be rose gray. And, if you consider
Silver Sentinel, who looks like he's medium brown solid, until you put the
individual fibers against a white background, he's a rose gray also.
Lastly, I have a suri boy sired by Condor and he's a silver background with
red/fawn splotches and white splotches all over in an appy pattern and he's
a rose gray.
These are NOT genetically the same. If we call them all the same thing, how
are we ever going to be able to sort these patterns and colors and dilutes
out?
We have to start keeping much better records! (My humble but sometimes
frustrated opinion!)
Let us keep up the discussions
maybe post some of our patterns and colors on
site under "types of gray" photos or something and begin to try to sort this
out over time.
There is so much more to learn and we can't learn until we have the
information accurate! Otherwise it is like a puzzle with some pieces
missing and a few from other puzzles thrown in for good measure!
Allison Moss-Fritch
New Moon Alpacas
Santa Clara, CA
From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogro
Behalf Of Heather Zeleny
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 9:31 PM
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogro
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: silver spot vs white spot
Try breeding your pintos and multis to white. Let me think back on
all of the breedings we've had that speak to this topic:
Beige dam, barely visible fawn/brown on face and topknot X white sire
= brown/white pinto cria
same dam X different white sire = fawn/white pinto cria
brown dam X white sire = pinto females 2 years in a row
dam similar to 1st example X TB sire, no white = pinto cria brown/white
same dam x brown sire = fawn/white pinto cria
TB dam with small white posts on face & topknot, behind one ankle X
TB sire, no white but small fawn spot on shoulder = TB cria with 4
boots and white face!
same TB dam X silver grey = light fawn cria
same TB dam X Avatar = drg cria :)
same TB dam X DRG/ID sire = light fawn cria (Kallista)
same dam X white = maroon cria
different TB dam with white on face X silver grey = BEW cria
I will say that out of all of our breedings over the last 11 years,
those small white spots on fawn or browns don't make for BEW. Those
small fawn or brown spots on white don't make for BEW. We've bred
them to each other and the only BEW came from breeding a solid with
white spot to the grey. And that was our 25% chance, I guess, because
my TB dam with white bred to grey/roan 3X did not produce BEW.
Heather
PS. I also don't agree with this professor's theory on white being
dominant and black being recessive. I have a different TB dam with no
white on her who has only thrown black even bred to white and fawn
exclusively. And some of these sires had nothing but white in the
pedigree, so there goes the "stealth black" theory! ;>
On Jan 8, 2009, at 9:08 PM, LunarStruck@
<mailto:LunarStruck
> I totally agree, Heather. From what I've seen, BEW's are much rarer
> than
> the statistics say they are. We are going to breed pinto to pinto
> and multi to
> multi to test out this theory, since we want multis and are only
> getting
> solids by breeding them to a solid.
>
> Susan Olson
> Alpaca Loco
> Riverside, CA
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posted by Chaddo at 11:31 PM
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