Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Saturday, November 28, 2009

Re: [AlpacaTalk] RE: female acting funny

 

 
Hi Janice,
 
I share your concern for the well-being of your dam and cria.  I think the stress they are displaying is potentially dangerous for their health (stress causes other physical problems that can, and have, caused death in alpacas, the same way stress causes deadly diseases in humans).  Your heart is telling you to do something about this, and I have some thoughts that I hope might be helpful.
 
Since mom and cria do not have other herdmates to comfort them (especially the little guy who needs the comfort of his mommy's touch), I feel they need to be put back together, immediately.  To prevent the cria from nursing (and using the colostrum meant for the new baby), it is possible to put kind of a "bra" on mom.  Think of a long piece of fabric that can be sized to wrap around mom, with velcro to close it at the top.  It would be a width that would cover her teats, comfortably.  Perhaps, Velcro could be fastened to each side (going around mom's body) so that a "strap" of velcro could be attached, in order to control how loose or tight it is.  I'm thinking of a wide sling, just in that section of her body.  I know people have done this, and I hope I've created a visual that makes sense.  Perhaps someone who has used this technique has a photo they can post???  At any rate, the problem of "colostrum theft" would cease to exist, and mom and cria would relax.  Please allow your imagination to run wild with the idea of covering mom's teats, which I believe is all that needs to happen in order to get these two back together, where they belong.  You may be very creative and able to come up with an idea that will work well for you.  Go for it!
 
Another thought I'd like to share.  We have been breeding alpacas for nine years, and we have never forced any of our crias to wean.  We feel that it is their mother's job to wean them when she is ready (nature's way), and we don't feel it is our (Ed's and my -- not speaking for anyone else) place to tell a mother when her baby should be weaned.  This has worked extremely well for us.  The only time it became a problem was, some years back, when we thought a cria had been weaned, and mom was about 6 weeks away from delivering her next cria.  We found them "clandestinely" nursing when we weren't looking.  But that was the only goof in nine years.  We have a very relaxed, happy herd, and I think it is because we let them lead us in deciding what is best for them.
 
I'm pulling for you, Janice.  I hope you can get things returned to peace and comfort, with everyone happy and healthy.  If I can find a photo of anything that might help you keep cria number one away from the milk bar, I will send it to you.
 
Best wishes,
Sue
 
Kindred Spirits Ranch
P.O. Box 68, Yale, OK 74085
18604 Wallace Circle, Maramec, OK 74045
Ed: (918) 873-0280 / Sue: (918) 873-0283
www.kindredspiritsranch.com

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Message posts are the opinion of individuals posting and are not necessarily endorsed or approved by Yahoo! or the moderator of this group. The purpose of this discussion group is to ensure that all points of view can be aired. It is the responsbilty of all individuals who post to treat others with respect and civility.
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posted by Chaddo at 7:34 PM 0 comments

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[AlpacaTalk] groundhog holes in alpaca field

 

I am getting my new field ready to bring my sheep and alpacas in and there are three large groundhog holes that are just looking to break a leg on one of my animals.  I am pretty sure the groundhogs have gone down for the winter here in Maryland.  So, I don't think I can trap them and remove them, but have GOT to fill these holes.  Any suggestions?  An old farmer near my says they pour a bag of concrete down the hole, it goes down to where the tunnel bends and the ground water hardens it, then fill with dirt.  But, I hate to think of burying the groundhog alive, even as dangerous as the holes are.

Susan Withnell
Westminster, MD

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Message posts are the opinion of individuals posting and are not necessarily endorsed or approved by Yahoo! or the moderator of this group. The purpose of this discussion group is to ensure that all points of view can be aired. It is the responsbilty of all individuals who post to treat others with respect and civility.
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posted by Chaddo at 5:34 PM 0 comments

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

RE: [AlpacaTalk] fertility questions

 

In my case, we bought our female and a gelding from someone that was getting out of Alpacas.  Part of the purchase agreement was that the female be bred to a male of hers but there was no cria from that.  These were our first Alpacas and being new to all of this and the fact the seller was getting out of Alpacas, there isn't a clause in our contract about the what ifs (no cria).  Not sure if we have any recourse or not at this point :(   Lot of money spent on a female if she can't produce.  The seller is aware that we haven't been able to get a cria from her as of yet (and not offered anything because of it).. 

Marsha

--- On Sat, 11/28/09, Allison Moss-Fritch <aemoss17@comcast.net> wrote:

From: Allison Moss-Fritch <aemoss17@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: [AlpacaTalk] fertility questions
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, November 28, 2009, 11:55 AM

 

Hi Heather,

 

Given the language of  your contract, you plainly have the remedy of requesting a replacement animal.  Given that no specific time period has been specified for the determination of what would be a reasonable time to prove either fertility or infertility, then a reasonable time is implied by law.   In this case a reasonable time would be long enough to become pregnant and carry a cria to term.  Reasonable proof of infertility would be a repro exam coupled  with attempts to settle the animal with a proven male who has produced progeny.  Since who bears costs has not been specified, you might suggest that they be split…or that you bear costs of breeding and they bear costs of repro exam before replacement clause kicks in.

 

Additionally, although you have express warranties, all of the normal "implied" warranties would exist as well.  Plus, you have the express warranties as stated and construed by law of your locality.

 

Your girl has not settled, you have given her time.  Have you notified the seller of your predicament?  Also, have you given them a chance to have the girl's status reviewed by their vet at their expense?  Both of those would be reasonable moves in this situation.

 

As usual, I give the following caveat.  I'm a retired attorney who was licensed in California.  I'm not practicing law or giving legal advice, just general information which may be of use.  You should consult with an attorney licensed in your area if you believe that legal action may be necessary.

 

In these situations, I believe that early communication and dialog is really necessary….and the earlier the better!

 

Best of luck with these frustrating events…hope your girl finally settles.

 

Allison

 

 

Allison E. Moss-Fritch

New Moon Alpacas

350 Cloquallum Rd.

Elma, WA 98541

 

360 861-8584

 

 

 

 

 

From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:AlpacaTalk@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Heather Zeleny
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 8:38 AM
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogro ups.com
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] fertility questions

 

 

My situation was a trade, and here are the relevant clauses.

 

 

"7. Seller's Express Warranties.

Barring any unforeseen events, Party 1 warrants "Female Alpaca" to be a healthy dam capable of reproduction. Party 1 is not aware of any current adverse medical condition in the animal."

 

And then this:

"9. Exclusive Remedies If The Parties Claim The Alpaca Is Infertile. In the event that one or both of the alpacas proves to be infertile each party will provide a suitable replacement or have the option to revoke the contract and send each alpaca to the original farm. If other remedies are presented they will be evaluated at the time."

 

So when you buy or trade, make sure your contract provides recourse if the animal does not produce after you receive it!

 

 

Heather

 

Heather Zeleny

White Lotus Alpacas

Oregon

 

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece

 

On Nov 28, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Richard & Robin Vasquez wrote:



 

Check your contract to see what it says.  I have a few that say " This alpaca is sold with a reporductive guarantee.  If said alpaca has previously produced a healthy cria her guarantee is fulfulled. "    

Robin 

Richard and Robin Vasquez 
R & R Ranch LLC

325B Denio Avenue 
Gilroy,CA 95020

Phone: 408-842-5233/ Cell 408-710-0676/ 710-7911

 

       A Ranch of Distinction
www.LoveThemAlpacas.com

                          LTA

 



--- On Fri, 11/27/09, Heather Zeleny <alpacatalk@gmail. com> wrote:


From: Heather Zeleny <alpacatalk@gmail. com>
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] fertility questions
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogro ups.com
Date: Friday, November 27, 2009, 7:44 PM

 

I'll add that after my girl's last abortion, we did a dilute betadine uterine flush for a week, in case of a uterine infection. She was not bred after the last abortion because of the calendar date.

 

I have yet to schedule the vet appt for the repro exam, but the bottom line is, I expected and am entitled to a female who can produce at least one cria, as per the terms of the contract. No matter whether the vet exam finds anything wrong or not, my dam has not produced a live cria for me. 

 

 

Heather

 

Heather Zeleny

White Lotus Alpacas

Oregon

 

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece

 

On Nov 27, 2009, at 7:38 PM, Marsha wrote:



 

Robin

Thank you for your input.  We will certainly be looking into these and hopefully be able to get a cria..  She is our only female so needless to say, very discouraging that we've had her two years and no cria yet.

Marsha

--- On Fri, 11/27/09, Richard & Robin Vasquez <rv@lovethemalpacas. com> wrote:


From: Richard & Robin Vasquez <rv@lovethemalpacas. com>
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] fertility questions
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogro ups.com
Date: Friday, November 27, 2009, 10:28 PM

 

 

My first guess would be a low grade uterine infection.  If they get pregnant (which it sounds like she is) and is unable to hold it that usually is a uterine infection.  A uterine culture would let you know if that was the case.

I heard that spit off 1st week = ovulation, 2nd week = conception, 3rd week = implantation. .
Good luck,  I am messing with a few girls that are being difficult in the pregnancy dept also. Fortunately that is not the norm.

Robin  

Richard and Robin Vasquez 
R & R Ranch LLC

325B Denio Avenue 
Gilroy,CA 95020

Phone: 408-842-5233/ Cell 408-710-0676/ 710-7911

 

       A Ranch of Distinction
www.LoveThemAlpacas.com

                          LTA

 



--- On Fri, 11/27/09, Heather Zeleny <alpacatalk@gmail. com> wrote:


From: Heather Zeleny <alpacatalk@gmail. com>
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] fertility questions
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogro ups.com
Date: Friday, November 27, 2009, 7:09 PM

 

First, you'll need to have a reproductive exam done by your vet. I need to have one done on one of my girls, who produced several live healthy crias before I got her, but since she's been at my farm has aborted twins in the first trimester 3 times in a row, in the last year and a half. 

 

After the vet exam, I think no matter what the results are, since you (and I) have not had a live cria from our female, look at the contract. Usually the recourse is return of the female and a replacement or refund. In my case, refund would be return of the animal I traded.

 

 

Heather

 

Heather Zeleny

White Lotus Alpacas

Oregon

 

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece

 

On Nov 27, 2009, at 7:01 PM, __A_YAHOO_USER_ _ wrote:



We have a female that has been bred several times and has yet to produce a cria. She has never had one prior to our purchasing her. She spits the boys off for the first 6 - 8 weeks even if they just come close to the fence line near her but after that will cush again. 

Are there specific tests that is recommended to be done on her to see if she is capable of holding a pregnancy? Is there anything that can be done to help her hold the pregnancy? She's not been stressed at all during this time frame. Any and all info on this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Marsha

 

 

 

 


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Message posts are the opinion of individuals posting and are not necessarily endorsed or approved by Yahoo! or the moderator of this group. The purpose of this discussion group is to ensure that all points of view can be aired. It is the responsbilty of all individuals who post to treat others with respect and civility.
.

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posted by Chaddo at 4:19 PM 0 comments

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [AlpacaTalk] fertility questions

 

That's an interesting thought, Jim. However, this is the first time we've ever had twinning on the farm in our almost 12 years of raising alpacas. Our pellet is alfalfa based with very little grain at all, and our pasture is not especially lush. Our hay is 2nd cutting orchard grass. I suppose it would be something to ask the vets, though.



Heather

Heather Zeleny
White Lotus Alpacas
Oregon

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece

On Nov 28, 2009, at 12:08 PM, jim gregoryk wrote:


Heather,
 
I too was having problems with a female that miscarried several times.  Then at a Old Time Farm Event a couple of summers ago I ran into a lady that has been raising alpacas for years and years.  I told her of my problem and she said "I bet she is getting too much sugar, keep her off the new grass and sweet feed and feed her good quality hay for the first 4 or 5 months."  "Then you can let her gradually graze out in the pasture."  It worked and Cheech has a beautiful pure white cria.  I am not positive that this is why but Cheech miscarried a single and set of twins before I got the information and did what she said.  I have looked and looked and can not find wonderful lady's name, I would llike to give her credit for this but regretfully  I can't find it.  Hope this helps
 
Jim

__._,_.___
Message posts are the opinion of individuals posting and are not necessarily endorsed or approved by Yahoo! or the moderator of this group. The purpose of this discussion group is to ensure that all points of view can be aired. It is the responsbilty of all individuals who post to treat others with respect and civility.
.

__,_._,___

posted by Chaddo at 1:38 PM 0 comments

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [AlpacaTalk] fertility questions

 

Heather,
 
I too was having problems with a female that miscarried several times.  Then at a Old Time Farm Event a couple of summers ago I ran into a lady that has been raising alpacas for years and years.  I told her of my problem and she said "I bet she is getting too much sugar, keep her off the new grass and sweet feed and feed her good quality hay for the first 4 or 5 months."  "Then you can let her gradually graze out in the pasture."  It worked and Cheech has a beautiful pure white cria.  I am not positive that this is why but Cheech miscarried a single and set of twins before I got the information and did what she said.  I have looked and looked and can not find wonderful lady's name, I would llike to give her credit for this but regretfully  I can't find it.  Hope this helps
 
Jim

--- On Sat, 11/28/09, Heather Zeleny <alpacatalk@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Heather Zeleny <alpacatalk@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] fertility questions
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, November 28, 2009, 12:16 PM

 
Hi Allison,
This girl arrived at our farm in January 2008. I waited until spring to breed her. This is her breeding schedule.
May 31, 2008 bred
June 23, 2008 bred
June 27, 2008 spit
July 2, 2008 spit
July 5, 2008, during spit testing another girl, she kushed, so we brought her intended back and they bred.
July 12, 2008 spit
July 26, 2008 spit
August 12, 2008 spit
October 9, 2008 aborted twins 96 days gestation

October 26, 2008 bred to a different sire
no spit testing.
January 15, 2009, aborted twins 82 days gestation

May 30, 2009 bred to my grey boy
June 1, 2009 spit
June 8, 2009 spit
June 11, 2009 spit
June 27, 2009 spit
July 2, 2009 spit
July 31, 2009 bred after resorption some time after July 2, 2009
August 12, 2009 spit
October 2, 2009 spit
October 8, spit
October 19, 2009 aborted twins 80 days gestation


After the first abortion, I chalked it up to the fact that twins often abort in the first trimester. After the second time, I did inform the previous owner, and I did mention it to our vet, who thought those were strange odds but didn't offer any medical explanation. Now, after the third time, I will have a reproductive exam done, but the past month has been very busy so I haven't scheduled it yet.. I hope our local vet will be able to do it rather than having to take her to OSU.

And, I did inform the previous owner of the third time, at which point he asked if I had had an exam done, which I have not, at this point. 

However, whether they find anything wrong or not, she has not produced a live cria for me, and I selected her for her bloodlines and color. 


Heather

Heather Zeleny
White Lotus Alpacas
Oregon

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece

On Nov 28, 2009, at 8:55 AM, Allison Moss-Fritch wrote:


Hi Heather,

 

Given the language of  your contract, you plainly have the remedy of requesting a replacement animal.  Given that no specific time period has been specified for the determination of what would be a reasonable time to prove either fertility or infertility, then a reasonable time is implied by law.   In this case a reasonable time would be long enough to become pregnant and carry a cria to term.  Reasonable proof of infertility would be a repro exam coupled  with attempts to settle the animal with a proven male who has produced progeny.  Since who bears costs has not been specified, you might suggest that they be split…or that you bear costs of breeding and they bear costs of repro exam before replacement clause kicks in.

 

Additionally, although you have express warranties, all of the normal "implied" warranties would exist as well.  Plus, you have the express warranties as stated and construed by law of your locality.

 

Your girl has not settled, you have given her time.  Have you notified the seller of your predicament?  Also, have you given them a chance to have the girl's status reviewed by their vet at their expense?  Both of those would be reasonable moves in this situation.

 

As usual, I give the following caveat.  I'm a retired attorney who was licensed in California.  I'm not practicing law or giving legal advice, just general information which may be of use.  You should consult with an attorney licensed in your area if you believe that legal action may be necessary.

 

In these situations, I believe that early communication and dialog is really necessary….and the earlier the better!

 

Best of luck with these frustrating events…hope your girl finally settles.

 

Allison

 

 

Allison E. Moss-Fritch

New Moon Alpacas

350 Cloquallum Rd.

Elma, WA 98541

 

360 861-8584

__._,_.___
Message posts are the opinion of individuals posting and are not necessarily endorsed or approved by Yahoo! or the moderator of this group. The purpose of this discussion group is to ensure that all points of view can be aired. It is the responsbilty of all individuals who post to treat others with respect and civility.
.

__,_._,___

posted by Chaddo at 12:08 PM 0 comments

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [AlpacaTalk] fertility questions

 

Thanks, Allison. I'll send him an email.


Heather

Heather Zeleny
White Lotus Alpacas
Oregon

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece

On Nov 28, 2009, at 9:43 AM, Allison Moss-Fritch wrote:


Hi Heather,

 

At this point I'd be talking to Dr. Tibary and also I'd be speaking to the seller about splitting costs of a good repro exam.  Sounds like her fertility is affected by her twinning….and that would be of great interest to a good Camelid vet…they are studying twinning.  In any case it is time for the repro exam and they are pricy.  This would be frustrating for me to say the least. 

 

Here is Tibary's info as I think he's wanting info on the type of problem you are having…and he probably knows about as much as can be known about this type of reproductive camelid problem so he is the best at assessing this that I can think of. 

 

·          

o 

Ahmed Tibary 

 

<image003.jpg>

Ahmed Tibary DVM, PhD, Diplomate ACT 
Professor 
Theriogenology 
Ph: 335-1963
tibary@vetmed.wsu.edu

 

He is at Washington State University but goes all over.  He can probably recommend someone in your area if he can't get to her himself.

 

You have certainly given this girl plenty of opportunity to perform and the bottom line is that for whatever reason, she is not showing herself to be capable of carrying to term.  They say that many dams begin with twins, but most drop or absorb one before the pregnancy is far progressed.  This girl does not …and that is of interest to camelid repro vets…

 

Allison

__._,_.___
Message posts are the opinion of individuals posting and are not necessarily endorsed or approved by Yahoo! or the moderator of this group. The purpose of this discussion group is to ensure that all points of view can be aired. It is the responsbilty of all individuals who post to treat others with respect and civility.
.

__,_._,___

posted by Chaddo at 11:45 AM 0 comments

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

RE: [AlpacaTalk] fertility questions

 

Hi Heather,

 

At this point I’d be talking to Dr. Tibary and also I’d be speaking to the seller about splitting costs of a good repro exam.  Sounds like her fertility is affected by her twinning….and that would be of great interest to a good Camelid vet…they are studying twinning.  In any case it is time for the repro exam and they are pricy.  This would be frustrating for me to say the least. 

 

Here is Tibary’s info as I think he’s wanting info on the type of problem you are having…and he probably knows about as much as can be known about this type of reproductive camelid problem so he is the best at assessing this that I can think of. 

 

·          

o 

Ahmed Tibary 

 

Ahmed Tibary

Ahmed Tibary DVM, PhD, Diplomate ACT 
Professor 
Theriogenology
Ph: 335-1963
tibary@vetmed.wsu.edu

 

He is at Washington State University but goes all over.  He can probably recommend someone in your area if he can’t get to her himself.

 

You have certainly given this girl plenty of opportunity to perform and the bottom line is that for whatever reason, she is not showing herself to be capable of carrying to term.  They say that many dams begin with twins, but most drop or absorb one before the pregnancy is far progressed.  This girl does not …and that is of interest to camelid repro vets…

 

Allison

 

 

From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Heather Zeleny
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 9:17 AM
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] fertility questions

 

 

Hi Allison,

This girl arrived at our farm in January 2008. I waited until spring to breed her. This is her breeding schedule.

May 31, 2008 bred

June 23, 2008 bred

June 27, 2008 spit

July 2, 2008 spit

July 5, 2008, during spit testing another girl, she kushed, so we brought her intended back and they bred.

July 12, 2008 spit

July 26, 2008 spit

August 12, 2008 spit

October 9, 2008 aborted twins 96 days gestation

 

October 26, 2008 bred to a different sire

no spit testing.

January 15, 2009, aborted twins 82 days gestation

 

May 30, 2009 bred to my grey boy

June 1, 2009 spit

June 8, 2009 spit

June 11, 2009 spit

June 27, 2009 spit

July 2, 2009 spit

July 31, 2009 bred after resorption some time after July 2, 2009

August 12, 2009 spit

October 2, 2009 spit

October 8, spit

October 19, 2009 aborted twins 80 days gestation

 

 

After the first abortion, I chalked it up to the fact that twins often abort in the first trimester. After the second time, I did inform the previous owner, and I did mention it to our vet, who thought those were strange odds but didn't offer any medical explanation. Now, after the third time, I will have a reproductive exam done, but the past month has been very busy so I haven't scheduled it yet.. I hope our local vet will be able to do it rather than having to take her to OSU.

 

And, I did inform the previous owner of the third time, at which point he asked if I had had an exam done, which I have not, at this point. 

 

However, whether they find anything wrong or not, she has not produced a live cria for me, and I selected her for her bloodlines and color. 

 

 

Heather

 

Heather Zeleny

White Lotus Alpacas

Oregon

 

Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece

 

On Nov 28, 2009, at 8:55 AM, Allison Moss-Fritch wrote:



 

Hi Heather,

 

Given the language of  your contract, you plainly have the remedy of requesting a replacement animal.  Given that no specific time period has been specified for the determination of what would be a reasonable time to prove either fertility or infertility, then a reasonable time is implied by law.   In this case a reasonable time would be long enough to become pregnant and carry a cria to term.  Reasonable proof of infertility would be a repro exam coupled  with attempts to settle the animal with a proven male who has produced progeny.  Since who bears costs has not been specified, you might suggest that they be split…or that you bear costs of breeding and they bear costs of repro exam before replacement clause kicks in.

 

Additionally, although you have express warranties, all of the normal “implied” warranties would exist as well.  Plus, you have the express warranties as stated and construed by law of your locality.

 

Your girl has not settled, you have given her time.  Have you notified the seller of your predicament?  Also, have you given them a chance to have the girl’s status reviewed by their vet at their expense?  Both of those would be reasonable moves in this situation.

 

As usual, I give the following caveat.  I’m a retired attorney who was licensed in California.  I’m not practicing law or giving legal advice, just general information which may be of use.  You should consult with an attorney licensed in your area if you believe that legal action may be necessary.

 

In these situations, I believe that early communication and dialog is really necessary….and the earlier the better!

 

Best of luck with these frustrating events…hope your girl finally settles.

 

Allison

 

 

Allison E. Moss-Fritch

New Moon Alpacas

350 Cloquallum Rd.

Elma, WA 98541

 

360 861-8584

__._,_.___
Message posts are the opinion of individuals posting and are not necessarily endorsed or approved by Yahoo! or the moderator of this group. The purpose of this discussion group is to ensure that all points of view can be aired. It is the responsbilty of all individuals who post to treat others with respect and civility.
.

__,_._,___

posted by Chaddo at 9:43 AM 0 comments