alpacas: 12/21/08

Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: Feed discussion

i had the same thing happen with the fibre - i carefully bred for superior fibre, then found my crias had a 26 micron count at 9 months and the adults i'd purchased because of their fine fibre, in one year were blown out to 26 - 28 microns - i was very upset and didn't know the cause - now i know

also, i have a beauty little female who has coughed and choked alarmingly since i got her - always when she is eating - i thought it was the hay and we have changed suppliers three times - when i contacted the person i bought her from, she wasn't aware of this awful coughing and hacking - now i know where that comes from too

this discussion is great - i'm learning more all the time
wendy
----- Original Message -----
From: Heather Zeleny
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: Feed discussion

Well, we know that corn and those high starch and sugar products
increase acidity in the guy, make the gut inhospitable to the hay mat,
cause digestive problems, ulcers...

It is proven that excessive corn or starchy feeds makes ruminants sick.

We do know that it was the pellet we used to feed to our alpacas that
caused the perforated ulcer and the fleece blow-outs. That was the only
variable.

Since we've been on our new pellet, nearly all of our
cria/weanling/yearlings fleeces have tested well below 20µ. On the old
pellet, that used to be cause for celebration, now it's the norm on our
farm.

We have mature males with 21µ at 5 years. Our other animals who blew
out have regained their former fineness. Not all completely back to the
prior count, since it's been a few years, but our only animals with
30+µ are very mature black animals. And even some of those have
regained some fineness.

So short answer, yes. It is caused by the feed.

Heather

On Dec 21, 2008, at 10:07 AM, Steve wrote:

> So corn, then I'm assuming, causes fiber blowout? Is that the idea?
> What sort of other things can cause this???
>
> Steve!

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: Feed discussion

Well, we know that corn and those high starch and sugar products
increase acidity in the guy, make the gut inhospitable to the hay mat,
cause digestive problems, ulcers...

It is proven that excessive corn or starchy feeds makes ruminants sick.

We do know that it was the pellet we used to feed to our alpacas that
caused the perforated ulcer and the fleece blow-outs. That was the only
variable.

Since we've been on our new pellet, nearly all of our
cria/weanling/yearlings fleeces have tested well below 20µ. On the old
pellet, that used to be cause for celebration, now it's the norm on our
farm.

We have mature males with 21µ at 5 years. Our other animals who blew
out have regained their former fineness. Not all completely back to the
prior count, since it's been a few years, but our only animals with
30+µ are very mature black animals. And even some of those have
regained some fineness.

So short answer, yes. It is caused by the feed.

Heather

On Dec 21, 2008, at 10:07 AM, Steve wrote:

> So corn, then I'm assuming, causes fiber blowout? Is that the idea?
> What sort of other things can cause this???
>
> Steve!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Thanks Wendy/Dr Evans manual

Oh boy, I can't imagine that kind of weather every year! We had snow
for the last week (today it's finally gone!) and a few frozen waterers,
a leaking connection... but nothing major like that!

Happy holidays to you! Stay warm and dry!

Heather

On Dec 21, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Wendy Edwards wrote:

> thanks for the number Janice - ill call him tomorrow ( i don't like to
> bother people about business on the weekend) - i really appreciate
> this
>
> There seems to be so much more info / research /development re
> alpacas in the US - Maybe now that Bush is out of the picture my
> husband will consent to cross the border and we could do a summer tour
> of alpaca farms and farmers - i can dream anyway!!
>
> hope your weather is better than ours - such a wind / blizzard last
> night i thought we were going to lose our old barn - it was a long and
> sleepless night
>
> all the best,
> Merry Christmas to all
> Wendy

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Thanks Wendy/Dr Evans manual

thanks for the number Janice - ill call him tomorrow ( i don't like to bother people about business on the weekend) - i really appreciate this

There seems to be so much more info / research /development re alpacas in the US - Maybe now that Bush is out of the picture my husband will consent to cross the border and we could do a summer tour of alpaca farms and farmers - i can dream anyway!!

hope your weather is better than ours - such a wind / blizzard last night i thought we were going to lose our old barn - it was a long and sleepless night

all the best,
Merry Christmas to all
Wendy

----- Original Message -----
From: houckj@aol.com
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 7:12 AM
Subject: [AlpacaTalk] Thanks Wendy/Dr Evans manual

<<I really appreciate all of your input Janice, and it sounds as if
things are going a bit better for you now - my heart really goes out to
you handling all of your many responsibilities on your own. I hope you
and your family have a peaceful and happy holiday season.
Merry Christmas
Wendy
DreamWeaver Alpacas
BC
>>

Thanks Wendy for the kind thoughts. We are doing pretty good, the baby
now sleeps thru the night, so my strength is returning and my brain
cells are starting to fire again - tho not consistently :-). And I
haven't had to bury an animal all year...thank god. Many things to be
thankful for this year, but still could use some help, just too much to
do by myself, but working on getting my ducks back in a row re animal
care.

Have you tried contacting Dr Norm directly for a copy of his book?
270-821-7993

Warmly, Janice

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: FEEd- A great Alpaca feed

So corn, then I'm assuming, causes fiber blowout? Is that the idea? What sort of other things can cause this???

Steve!

On Dec 21, 2008, at 12:54 PM, Heather Zeleny <alpacatalk@westwindalpacas.com> wrote:

Oh, and we don't have to add crap like molasses or other junk to make
the feed palatable. (Molasses for alpacas is not good nutrition)
They already love alfalfa and flax!

On Dec 21, 2008, at 9:48 AM, Heather Zeleny wrote:

> Oh my god, those are the size of large dog kibbles! There is no
> information about this feed at all except for promotional claims. No
> GA
> or ingredients listed.
>
> No thanks anyway, I'm very happy with our custom pellet. It's the
> regular small pellet size. And it's a harder pellet so also no dust,
> and we have no choke, either.
>
> We do ship as well. It's just very expensive and the buyer is
> responsible for all costs involved. For a few bags, last time we
> shipped any feed, FedEx was cheapest. We check UPS and USPS as well.
> and figure 55 lbs for the weight of the feed and a box. Our zip is
> 97401 if anyone is interested in seeing what shipping would be from
> our
> location to yours.
>
> Oh, by the way, I receive absolutely no income from these pellets. It
> is my mom's deal 100%. I just think they're a superior product to
> eveything else out there. And we've tried Dynamite. Haven't tried
> Mazuri or Evans. We're just not willing to feed our alpacas corn and
> by-products. We had not only the death from a perforated ulcer, but
> the
> fleeces of our entire herd blew out in just one year. A yearling who
> won a blue at Alpacapalooza (Level 5 show!) who had 20 microns at 15
> months, had 27.8 microns the following year. Another girl who was 20µ
> at 1 yr was 30µ the next year. My 16.6µ boy was 20 something the next
> year. The only thing we could think was the feed, since everything
> else
> was the same.
>
> We just won't feed a product that has those vague ingredients listed.
> Agricultural roughage product? What kind of thing is that? It's
> whatever they can get at the lowest price. Our feed is the same every
> time. Have you ever noticed that one bag of your other feed will look
> and smell completely different from the next? And the animals will eat
> it sometimes but not others? That's why! Alpacas do not eat something
> if they don't know what it is. Our alpacas get exactly the same pellet
> from one run the the next, or the next. Unless we make changes in the
> recipe, as we do from time to time to improve it as we learn more and
> observe our herd.
>
> Heather

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: FEEd- A great Alpaca feed

Oh, and we don't have to add crap like molasses or other junk to make
the feed palatable. (Molasses for alpacas is not good nutrition)
They already love alfalfa and flax!

On Dec 21, 2008, at 9:48 AM, Heather Zeleny wrote:

> Oh my god, those are the size of large dog kibbles! There is no
> information about this feed at all except for promotional claims. No
> GA
> or ingredients listed.
>
> No thanks anyway, I'm very happy with our custom pellet. It's the
> regular small pellet size. And it's a harder pellet so also no dust,
> and we have no choke, either.
>
> We do ship as well. It's just very expensive and the buyer is
> responsible for all costs involved. For a few bags, last time we
> shipped any feed, FedEx was cheapest. We check UPS and USPS as well.
> and figure 55 lbs for the weight of the feed and a box. Our zip is
> 97401 if anyone is interested in seeing what shipping would be from
> our
> location to yours.
>
> Oh, by the way, I receive absolutely no income from these pellets. It
> is my mom's deal 100%. I just think they're a superior product to
> eveything else out there. And we've tried Dynamite. Haven't tried
> Mazuri or Evans. We're just not willing to feed our alpacas corn and
> by-products. We had not only the death from a perforated ulcer, but
> the
> fleeces of our entire herd blew out in just one year. A yearling who
> won a blue at Alpacapalooza (Level 5 show!) who had 20 microns at 15
> months, had 27.8 microns the following year. Another girl who was 20µ
> at 1 yr was 30µ the next year. My 16.6µ boy was 20 something the next
> year. The only thing we could think was the feed, since everything
> else
> was the same.
>
> We just won't feed a product that has those vague ingredients listed.
> Agricultural roughage product? What kind of thing is that? It's
> whatever they can get at the lowest price. Our feed is the same every
> time. Have you ever noticed that one bag of your other feed will look
> and smell completely different from the next? And the animals will eat
> it sometimes but not others? That's why! Alpacas do not eat something
> if they don't know what it is. Our alpacas get exactly the same pellet
> from one run the the next, or the next. Unless we make changes in the
> recipe, as we do from time to time to improve it as we learn more and
> observe our herd.
>
> Heather

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: FEEd- A great Alpaca feed

Oh my god, those are the size of large dog kibbles! There is no
information about this feed at all except for promotional claims. No GA
or ingredients listed.

No thanks anyway, I'm very happy with our custom pellet. It's the
regular small pellet size. And it's a harder pellet so also no dust,
and we have no choke, either.

We do ship as well. It's just very expensive and the buyer is
responsible for all costs involved. For a few bags, last time we
shipped any feed, FedEx was cheapest. We check UPS and USPS as well.
and figure 55 lbs for the weight of the feed and a box. Our zip is
97401 if anyone is interested in seeing what shipping would be from our
location to yours.

Oh, by the way, I receive absolutely no income from these pellets. It
is my mom's deal 100%. I just think they're a superior product to
eveything else out there. And we've tried Dynamite. Haven't tried
Mazuri or Evans. We're just not willing to feed our alpacas corn and
by-products. We had not only the death from a perforated ulcer, but the
fleeces of our entire herd blew out in just one year. A yearling who
won a blue at Alpacapalooza (Level 5 show!) who had 20 microns at 15
months, had 27.8 microns the following year. Another girl who was 20µ
at 1 yr was 30µ the next year. My 16.6µ boy was 20 something the next
year. The only thing we could think was the feed, since everything else
was the same.

We just won't feed a product that has those vague ingredients listed.
Agricultural roughage product? What kind of thing is that? It's
whatever they can get at the lowest price. Our feed is the same every
time. Have you ever noticed that one bag of your other feed will look
and smell completely different from the next? And the animals will eat
it sometimes but not others? That's why! Alpacas do not eat something
if they don't know what it is. Our alpacas get exactly the same pellet
from one run the the next, or the next. Unless we make changes in the
recipe, as we do from time to time to improve it as we learn more and
observe our herd.

Heather

On Dec 21, 2008, at 8:00 AM, Michael A. Morack wrote:

> Google Pac-A-Nutrition. On their web site all information including
> the packaging label is available. Recommended feeding is also
> provided on the label and varies relative to the animals demands, ie.
> pregnant, lactating, breeding, ect. If you are not able to obtain the
> information you would like, email me privately and I will forward a
> scanned label for you to review.
> Regards Michael
> Michael and Margery A. Morack
> Greenbriar Farm
> Waukesha, WI 53189-7965
> 262.907.9633
> MAM2@wi.rr.com

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: feed

Hi Morgen,
Our alpacas eat primarily free choice 2nd cutting Orchard grass hay.
They eat this all day long, and probably a good part of the night as
well. :) We have no question that their rumens get adequate
stimulation.

Our pellets are solely a carrier for the vitamin/mineral mix. Alfalfa
is a bit higher in protein and fat than grass hay is, so it does
provide a small increase in that, but as I said, our pregnant and
nursing dams only get 1 cup per day, so this is not a major portion of
their diet. We don't rely on any alpaca pellet to provide rumen
stimulation, period.

I hadn't heard that about the alfalfa pellets being lower quality than
alfalfa hay. However, if it is true, I still feel it's a better thing
to feed my alpacas than brewer's or distiller's dried grain, wheat
midds, soybean hulls, or even corn that may not be a by-product... And,
what alfalfa pellets are made from is probably bits of alfalfa leaf
that falls off the stems during baling and whatever other processing.
Hmm, actually, baling is done in the fields, all waste from that
operation is plowed back into the soil.

I haven't been to AS in a very long time, I can't stand RH's stupid
tantrums and irrational behavior. I may waste a lot of time, but at
least I spend it doing something enjoyable rather than watching his
circus. My family has been raising alpacas for over 10 years. Some of
these "respected people", like RH in particular, have only heard of
alpacas maybe 6 or 7 years ago... hasn't been caring for them for
nearly that long,

Also, we don't drylot, and we certainly do not pour the pellets onto
the ground and make a free-for-all feeding situation where the
bossy/dominant animals get most of the feed and the lower ranking ones
get nothing or dust. He wants everyone to believe they only take what
they NEED, and no more, but that is not true. Ask the person who lost
the two dams to cyanide poisoning after they broke into her flax seed
bin after a gate accident.

Heather

On Dec 21, 2008, at 8:54 AM, dreamwoodalpacas wrote:

> Heather, I am curious about this b/c I was using pellets since I was
> having an impossible time finding alfalfa hay and I tried the Lucerne
> AlfaSupreme, but they wouldn't eat it. However, several well-respected
> people (and vets) on alpacasite said that pellets aren't as good b/c
> 1. they do not provide the necessary rumen stimulation b/c the rumen
> needs long stems and 2. the pellets are usually made from the waste
> and small bits at the processing plant and thus are a lower quality.
>
> Morgen

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[AlpacaTalk] Re: feed

Heather, I am curious about this b/c I was using pellets since I was
having an impossible time finding alfalfa hay and I tried the Lucerne
AlfaSupreme, but they wouldn't eat it. However, several well-respected
people (and vets) on alpacasite said that pellets aren't as good b/c
1. they do not provide the necessary rumen stimulation b/c the rumen
needs long stems and 2. the pellets are usually made from the waste
and small bits at the processing plant and thus are a lower quality.

Morgen

--- In AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com, Heather Zeleny <alpacatalk@...>
wrote:
>
> There are definite reasons for feeding pellets. The alpacas like
them!
> It's a good way to get the alpacas into the stalls. Our feed is
> concentrated, so we feed only 1 cup to pregnant and nursing dams, so
> it's less than 1 cup of alfalfa pellets per girl. The alfalfa at
this
> rate of feeding is not in the least harmful to them, and does
provide
> necessary calories that pregnant dams need, in addition to calcium.
>
> Alfalfa pellets aren't expensive, and it does prevent leaving
alfalfa
> stems strewn all over the feeding area. I see no advantage of
alfalfa
> hay over pellets when it comes down to it, and the pellets can be an
> advantage as the alpacas do very much enjoy their pellets and you
can
> then top-dress as necessary.
>
> I wold avoid sugars and starches in my alpacas' diets, though, as I
> said previously. A perforated stomach ulcer is a terrible thing for
an
> alpaca to die from, and totally unnecessary and avoidable.
>
> Heather
>
> Heather Zeleny
> White Lotus Alpacas
> Creswell, OR
>
> 541.895.0964
>
> Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece
> http://www.whitelotusalpacas.com
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AlpacaTalk/join
>
> On Dec 20, 2008, at 6:45 AM, bluebirdhills@... wrote:
> > Hi Janice,
> >
> > Custom Milling has an excellent mineral, reasonable
> > priced that the alpacas love. You can certainly manage your
animals
> > just fine with good pasture, good hay, and minerals. They don't
> > really need pellets at all as long as the vitamins and especially
> > minerals
> > are available to them. I think I would avoid the alfalfa pellets
and
> > beet
> > pulp and reroute myself and my money to just purchasing excellent
> > quality
> > hay instead For those that might need an extra nutritional boost,
you
> > could add the straight alfalfa hay, but you might want to chop it
> > first
> > for their prehensile lips seem to be able to grab only the leaves
> > (candy
> > to them).
> >
> > Laurel
> >
> > Bluebird Hills Farm
> > Springfield, Ohio
> > 937-206-3936
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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alpacas

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Sunday, December 21, 2008

Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: Feed discussion

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: Feed discussion

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [AlpacaTalk] Thanks Wendy/Dr Evans manual

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [AlpacaTalk] Thanks Wendy/Dr Evans manual

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: FEEd- A great Alpaca feed

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: FEEd- A great Alpaca feed

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: FEEd- A great Alpaca feed

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: feed

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

[AlpacaTalk] Re: feed

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