Re: [AlpacaTalk] gelding a breeding male
I guess I just wouldn't give a guy more than 3 tries to prove his
abilities to improve over a dam or to produce "show quality"... not 10!
And I'd definitely try him with more than one dam but not too many.
However, ribbons do not make a good breeding program. And, ribboning at
all really is the top 5-10% of the alpaca population. If we're really
to be a fleece industry, ribbons mean very little compared to the
actual fleece. The crimp craze we are currently experiencing comes from
the sheep industry, in which sheep do show the relationship of crimp to
fineness and density. However, in alpacas, this is not the case.
We recently showed a fleece from a mature male. Unfortunately, he was
the only entry in his class, but the judge was very tough and he won a
blue ribbon anyway. She was not generous with points, and anything over
60 from her was indeed a superior fleece! This fleece was tested at 21µ
or so, in a mature male. His skirted blanket weight was over 4 lbs.
Yet, the judge said this was not a dense fleece. He does have good
strong, uniform crimp, not the tiny 8 crimps per inch.
Since alpacas are domesticated from vicuñas (DNA research done in 2000
by Dr Jane Wheeler has proven this), it is clear that alpacas' fleece
characteristics more closely follow the vicuñas, rather than sheep.
Vicuñas have a follicle density shows an average of 85-95 follicles/sq.
mm. AFD is always around 12.5 with a SD of about 1. Yet, vicuñas have
very little in the way of visibly perceptible crimp, their fleece shows
what is referred to as crinkle. I admit, I too am wowed by the gorgeous
crimp. It looks impressive. But even the judge contradicted herself
when she said the fleece I mentioned above lacked density!
The alpaca show system is moving toward a sheep model. Our alpacas are
expected to have the fleece characteristics of sheep to ribbon well.
Yet vicuña fleece is far more valuable than any sheep fleece, so why
are chasing the sheep standards? Those "deep crimp" models are being
pushed by some in the industry who have that in their highly promoted
herdsire marketing program, and by some from other countries who come
from a sheep background.
I don't know about anyone else, but I'd rather have a herdful of
alpacas with afd:13µ sd:1.0 with 90 follicles per sq mm in my fields
any day over the latest flavor of the month champion sire. I'd even
take them if their conformation was a bit off! Vcuñas have some
angulation in their front legs (knock knees), are cow hocked, and have
quite a roach back compared with alpacas. All things constituting poor
conformation in the alpaca show system. Why are we being forced to
breed for llama-like conformation rather than vicuña-like qualities?
The latest marketing scheme meant to make loads of money for the person
offering the service is the skin follicle testing. I see many people
having this test done, but very few people actually tell you the
results of that test! I've heard "He said it was very good" as the
result. Well, what is good? 85-95 is good, do these alpacas come close
to that? I see people touting the primary to secondary ratio more than
the actual follicle per mm. Why is that?
Sorry to have digressed, but we really need to get a handle on what is
a good alpaca or not, and stop falling for all the marketing hype, and
breed for good, super-fine, low SD, dense fleece!
Anyway Emaly, good luck deciding what to do! :)
Heather
Heather Zeleny
White Lotus Alpacas
(formerly West Wind Alpacas)
Eugene, OR
541.895.0964
Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece
http://www.alpacana
http://tech.
On Jul 6, 2008, at 7:52 AM, Don Stanwyck wrote:
> There are lots of reasons to geld a proven breeder. Here are a few
> reasons
> we have done so:
>
> 1. Confirmed that the herdsire was not improving over the dams he was
> breeding;
>
> 2. Marginal quality herdsire was used when farm was starting, quickly
> was obvious he wasn't really a good herdsire;
>
> 3. Saw undesirable traits in offspring.
>
> Keep in mind that if your goal is to quickly improve your herd you
> should
> only be using males that are in the top 5-10% of all males (not just
> the top
> 5-10% of your males). Just as in all livestock businesses we only
> need a
> very few very good males to settle the girls - the rest are (or
> should be)
> fiber boys. If you have a boy who is not blue ribbon quality you are
> not
> helping your business if you use him. We know personally how
> difficult it
> can be to take a nice boy (say an 80th percentile boy) and
> acknowledge that
> he isn't the level you need for breeding your dams up.
>
> Don Stanwyck
>
> Carnation, WA
>
> From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogro
> On
> Behalf Of Heather Zeleny
> Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2008 9:02 PM
> To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogro
> Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] gelding a breeding male
>
> I don't think it's ever advisable to put a gelding of any age with
> open
> females, especially juveniles. A proven herdsire will undoubtedly
> breed
> open females, breeding is a learned behavior in camelids and unlike
> dogs and cats, the males anyway, will continue to breed if they can.
> Come to think of it, some dogs and cats do, too, if they have bred
> before neutering.
>
> My greater question is why would someone want to geld a male who is a
> proven breeder? In any instance, my preference would be to obtain a
> non-breeder companion female.
>
> Heather
>
> Heather Zeleny
> White Lotus Alpacas
> (formerly West Wind Alpacas)
> Eugene, OR
>
> 541.895.0964
>
> Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece
> http://www.alpacana
> http://tech.
>
> On Jul 5, 2008, at 8:47 PM, Emaly Leak wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have a question about gelding a breeding male. The boy in question
> > is 9
> > years old, and has sired 5-10 crias. I am considering purchasing him
> > as a
> > fiber boy, but he would have to be gelded. First, is it an issue to
> > geld a
> > male that is this old? I wasn't sure about the anesthesia. Second, I
> > would
> > have to put him in with my female llamas and crias after he was
> gelded
> > (after a waiting period, of course). Is there a good chance that a
> > proven
> > male would still calm down enough to be put in with females, or
> would
> > he not
> > be trust-worthy? I've only dealt with gelding younger males (under 3
> > years
> > old). Thanks, Emaly
> >
> > Emaly Leak
> >
> > Autumn Hill Llamas & Fiber
> >
> > llamapyr25@earthlin
> >
> > www.autumnhillllama
> >
> > Fairland, IN
> >
> > Llamas, Alpacas, German Angora Rabbits, and Fiber Items
> >
> > Female & Male Llamas For Sale
> >
> > Outside Breedings available to ALSA Halter Champion Male
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe
__,_._,___
posted by Chaddo at 9:22 AM
0 comments
