hi Heather - a picture says a thousand words and i think the picture of the fleece on your website says it all.
thanks for the referral to Dr. Rober VanSaun. I think his recommendations as a modified ruminant expert (he backs up what you are saying by the way), plus the geographic considerations (the local feel mill nutritionist) will enable me to develop what i need for my vancouver island alpacas.
i've read through all of the contributions by fellow listserve members and sorted out what applies to me and my animals and what doesn't. Thanks to everyone for their input.
It is snowing hard here - all family visits etc are cancelled due to unbelieveably bad road conditions. I am supposed to be helping to serve dinner at the Elders' Home today but it looks like i won't be able to make it. We are going through hay like crazy but thank heavens we have enough to see us through.
Merry Christmas to everyone, wishing you all a safe and happy holiday season.
Wendy
DreamWeaver Alpacas
Port Alberni, BC
----- Original Message -----
From: Heather Zeleny
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] alpaca feed
Hi Laurel,
I'm the first to acknowledge that words can be misread, confused and
misinterpreted. I know that I frequently forget to mention this topic
or that when trying to get all the info in.
I just wanted to make sure that everyone understood that the issue with
feeding grain to ruminants is Rumen Acidosis, not systemic acidosis.
And that the low pH resulting in the feeding of grain and grain
by-products has been shown to burn the stomach lining in C1 in alpacas.
"Metabolic acidosis is an increased production of metabolic acids,
usually resulting from disturbances in the ability to excrete acid via
the kidneys. Renal acidosis is associated with an accumulation of urea
and creatinine as well as metabolic acid residues of protein
catabolism." Wikipedia. This is usually caused by excess protein in the
diet if I'm not mistaken, something that ruminants need only in small
amounts comparatively.
I'm going to have to continue to disagree that grain and grain
by-products are fine food for ruminants. By simply feeding a forage
based feed with the vit/min to ensure they do get those requirements,
along with free choice good quality hay and fresh water is all they
ned, and all they should get. I just fail to see the wisdom in feeding
grain based feeds that have to be carefully balanced with other
ingredients to offset the high potassium, high sugars and starches
(yes, they are still higher than alfalfa or hay) etc., that make it
more complicated than necessary. Our feed is simple and is correctly
balanced already.
I always do say that there a good many breeders who feed only hay and
free choice mineral mix. And they do have good, healthy, alpacas.
However, they also tend to have fleeces that are dull and dry and
lifeless. They may have good crimp (in huacayas) and staple, and still
may score well in fleece shows, but the difference is striking. At our
fleece show this year, one of the things the judge kept say was along
the lines of"This is a really nice fleece, too bad it's so dry" or
lifeless or flat... she even called one fleece "dead". And her comment
was that diet is the main cause of the condition fleeces that really
could have so much nicer.
Heather
Heather Zeleny
White Lotus Alpacas
Creswell, OR
541.895.0964
Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece
http://www.whitelotusalpacas.com
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AlpacaTalk/join
On Dec 23, 2008, at 8:11 PM, bluebirdhills@voyager.net wrote:
>
>
> Hi Heather,
>
> No matter how carefully I try to write, I seem to
> always end up on the wrong side of things, and seemingly in a spat
> with
> you. Believe me that is not my intention. I am sure that you have a
> wonderful feed with wonderful results and, if I were you, I wouldn't
> change at all. I certainly have no problem with your supplement, but
> I do
> have a problem with the assumption that other ingredients that are
> byproducts of milling or distilling are bad.
>
> As I wrote
> last time, I acknowledged rumen acidosis and its greater consequence
> of
> causing the blood to become acidic. Ulcers further down in the
> 3rd compartment may or may not be caused by an acid imbalance higher
> in
> the gut. For years in human medicine it was assumed that almost
> ulcers in humans were caused by hyperacidity. Now we know that many
> are
> caused by bacteria. It is my personal suspicion that 3rd compartment
> ulcers in alpacas are also caused by a bacteria, perhaps one allowed
> to
> thrive under stress or improper diet. It is just a guess.
>
> I
> acknowledged that literally any feed can cause GI upsets and rumen
> acidosis, although it is very unlikely with straight grass. But this
> is if these feeds are offered inappropriately. You mention grain as
> causing acidosis and I acknowledge that this can happen, but the
> beauty of
> distillers grains and wheat middlings is that the starches that are
> the
> major culprits in causing rumen acidosis have been consumed in
> milling or
> distilling, leaving the fiber and protein behind.
>
> I am not
> trying at all to confuse folks. Actually, I am trying to make them
> feel
> more comfortable with the feeds they are using if they contain
> distillers
> grains or wheat midds. There are many good feeds out there for
> alpacas,
> and many sport different ingredients. The pellet sizes will differ
> and the
> consistency might be different, but that does not make a feed bad or
> good.
> By the way, I have had choke with small pellets, larger pellets, and
> crumble. Choke is mostly caused by the behavior of the alpaca snarfing
> down the feed, not the form the feed comes in.
>
> I too am not
> wild about the use of molasses, but in the small proportion it is
> provided
> in most feeds, it probably makes little difference. I use feed that
> has
> some cracked corn, distillers grain, and wheat midds, and my alpacas
> are
> very healthy. It is possible that there is more than one way to
> achieve the same result and I acknowledge your success with your
> feed. I envy that you have a mill that is safe enough to do this for
> you.
> I do not have that luxury, and in reality, most folks don't.
>
> I
> guess the point I am making is that the ingredients you shun, are
> also excellent sources of nutrition when handled in proper
> proportions in
> a supplement, just as the alfalfa, flax, barley and the ingredients
> your feed posesses are excellent. All of these ingredients, yours
> and mine, can cause rumen acidosis or other problems, if not fed
> properly. All can be beneficial as can beet pulp (another
> by-product), and numerous other special supplemental feedstuffs.
> Hopefully, we all feed these in minimal quantities relative to the
> forage our alpacas consume. In other words we can both have success
> using
> all of the ingredients we use.
>
> I had not read the paper you
> sited from the ARF, but the parts you quote aren't really applicable,
> since the ingredients in my feed are not grain, but grain
> by-products. As
> I said before, the starches that are associated with rumen acidosis
> are
> not in these by-products, for they were used to make flour or
> alcohol. As
> for the comparison to finishing beef cattle, it really isn't
> appropriate
> since these animals are put into feed lots where they are changed
> over to
> a diet where a much larger proportion is grain and by-products than
> the
> forage their rumen was designed and accustomed to.
>
> The irony of
> this discussion is that we probably agree more than disagree. I don't
> agree with using molasses, I don't agree with regularly supplementing
> with
> straight grains. We both agree with the need for fresh feed and we
> both
> agree that we need to use supplements carefully, and only as a means
> to
> get necessary proteins, vitamins, and minerals into the alpaca.
>
> My alpacas are healthy and I have never had issues with lactation, nor
> have I ever had to use a creep feeder. The crias handle the pellets
> just
> fine and we have never had issues with enterotoxemia (knock on
> wood). I have over 70 alpacas on my farm and they are all in good
> health. So evidently we both have learned that there is more than one
> way
> to skin the cat and both have had great success.
>
> There are many
> more breeders out there experiencing the same success using all sorts
> of
> different feed programs including no supplements at all. All of this
> means that the alpacas do just fine in spite of us.
>
> God's Peace
> in this Joyous Season,
>
> Laurel
> Bluebird Hills Farm
> 937-206-3936
> www.bluebirdhills.com
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