[Alpacasite] Re: igg tests

Thanks Jan & Rick,
I had read the instructions on both the manufacturer's website and
on your's Rick, but I was not sure this was something I could/should
do myself or not. I feel more confident now knowing that people are
reading them themselves, ...and very respected people at that....

You've answered my questions and my concerns..

Thanks so much for being here.

Janice

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, All American Alpacas
<alpacas@a...> wrote:
>
> I do them myself.
> If you have a plate, the directions at http://aaalpacas.com/igg/
should
> guide you through it.
> If not, a red top tube and off to the lab
>
> Rick
> --
> Rick & Pati Horn
> All American Alpacas
> Murrieta, Ca.
> http://aaalpacas.com/updates.html
> alpacas@a... - alpacas(at)alpacaweb.com
> (951) 679-7795
> Life is good!
>
> > From: "Sandy Acres Alpacas" <janice@s...>
> > Reply-To: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 04:45:01 -0000
> > To: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Alpacasite] igg tests
> >
> >
> > Quick question
> > If you draw blood for an igg test, do you read the plates
yourself or
> > can the plates be sent out for someone to read?
> > Do you load the plates to send out or send just the blood to the
lab?
> >
> > You would use red top serum seperator tubes for the blood in
either
> > case, correct?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Janice Mortimer
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility
of the person
> > posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in
no way
> > reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
> >
> >
> >
> > List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas
alpacas@a...
> > http://aaalpacas.com
> >
> >
> >
> > TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

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Re: [Alpacasite] igg tests

I do them myself.
If you have a plate, the directions at http://aaalpacas.com/igg/ should
guide you through it.
If not, a red top tube and off to the lab

Rick
--
Rick & Pati Horn
All American Alpacas
Murrieta, Ca.
http://aaalpacas.com/updates.html
alpacas@alpacaweb.com - alpacas(at)alpacaweb.com
(951) 679-7795
Life is good!

> From: "Sandy Acres Alpacas" <janice@sandyacresalpacas.com>
> Reply-To: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 04:45:01 -0000
> To: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Alpacasite] igg tests
>
>
> Quick question
> If you draw blood for an igg test, do you read the plates yourself or
> can the plates be sent out for someone to read?
> Do you load the plates to send out or send just the blood to the lab?
>
> You would use red top serum seperator tubes for the blood in either
> case, correct?
>
> Thanks
> Janice Mortimer
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person
> posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way
> reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>
>
>
> List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
> http://aaalpacas.com
>
>
>
> TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [Alpacasite] igg tests

You can do the whole process yourself. No need to use any tubes.
Follow the directions that come with the plates.

jandavis@derwyddalpacas.com
esparto CA 530-787-0007

On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 04:45:01 -0000, Sandy Acres Alpacas wrote:
>Quick question
>If you draw blood for an igg test, do you read the plates yourself or
>can the plates be sent out for someone to read?
>Do you load the plates to send out or send just the blood to the lab?
>
>You would use red top serum seperator tubes for the blood in either
>case, correct?
>
>Thanks
>Janice Mortimer
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person
posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect
the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>
>
>
>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
>http://aaalpacas.com
>
>
>
>TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
>
>
>
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Re: [Alpacasite] OPEN FEMALES/GELDED MALES

I think this is the conclusion that most of the alpacasiters came
to...........although there are still those who are adamant about keeping
geldings separate.

Barrie Hanslip
Sooke, BC

----- Original Message -----
From: <SIMPLECLWN@AOL.COM>
To: <Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Alpacasite] OPEN FEMALES/GELDED MALES

>
>
> In a message dated 11/22/2005 11:22:35 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> mortontricia@hotmail.com writes:
>
> I am catching up on my alpacasite e-mails and have ran across
> something hopefully someone can shed some more light on. Do not
> keep 'open' females in same pasture as gelded males?? Is this true
> in all cases?
>
>
> This is my experience of 23 years with llamas and 5 with alpacas:
>
> It depends on the gelding. I routinely run my gelded llamas/alpaca with
> my
> female herd. Most of my llama females are open (like 40 out of 45).
> Some of
> my alpaca females are open. If I observe a gelding exhibiting breeding
> behavior -- I put him with my "boy" herd. Problem solved.
>
> Other than that -- I have found the older geldings make great "uncles" for
> babysitting the crias when mom is tired/needs a break.
>

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[Alpacasite] igg tests

Quick question
If you draw blood for an igg test, do you read the plates yourself or
can the plates be sent out for someone to read?
Do you load the plates to send out or send just the blood to the lab?

You would use red top serum seperator tubes for the blood in either
case, correct?

Thanks
Janice Mortimer

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Re: [Alpacasite] Sending blood samples

Hi, Sue!
Yep, all you need to do is put it in an envelope and mail it. I usually do wrap it in some bubble wrap, just to protect the little tube a bit, but ordinary mail is just fine. That being said, as far as I know, this only applies to progesterone testing and the little plastic tube. I don't know the specifics, but other types of sampling need special tubes and special care.
Barbara Zachary
New Age Alpacas
Atascadero, CA
----- Original Message -----
From: andesdandies
To: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 7:50 PM
Subject: [Alpacasite] Sending blood samples

Hi list,

Sorry if this is a repeat question, but I can't find the answer online
or in my archives. What are the procedures to send a blood sample to
M&M labs (or another lab)? We have their form, and their little plastic
containers, but no directions, and nothing on their site. In this day &
age of mail security, and biosecurity, I find it hard to believe I can
just pop it in any old envelope & mail it off? Blood??

Of course, this being the holiday weekend I'm not likely to get anyone
at the lab to answer me, and also it is the weekend I have help here to
draw the blood...

Thanks in advance,

Sue Zelazny
Andes Dandies, LLC
http://www.andesdandies.com
Middleport, NY

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[Alpacasite] Sending blood samples

Hi list,

Sorry if this is a repeat question, but I can't find the answer online
or in my archives. What are the procedures to send a blood sample to
M&M labs (or another lab)? We have their form, and their little plastic
containers, but no directions, and nothing on their site. In this day &
age of mail security, and biosecurity, I find it hard to believe I can
just pop it in any old envelope & mail it off? Blood??

Of course, this being the holiday weekend I'm not likely to get anyone
at the lab to answer me, and also it is the weekend I have help here to
draw the blood...

Thanks in advance,

Sue Zelazny
Andes Dandies, LLC
http://www.andesdandies.com
Middleport, NY

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[Alpacasite] Re: Private Replies

If you log on to view the messages (versus getting them sent to your
inbox) you just have to click on 'email' to send a private response,
and 'reply' to send one to the group, easy as pie, and no clutter in
your inbox!

Best regards,

Sue Zelazny
Andes Dandies, LLC
http://www.andesdandies.com
Middleport, NY

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, "Pleasant View Farm" <desando@p...>
wrote:
>
> If we put our return address in our signature, can that be clicked
on for
> private replies also?
>
> PLEASANT VIEW FARM SURI ALPACAS ~ CAMILLE DESANDO, OWNER
> Gilbert, PA ~ PHONE: 610-681-3759
> SURI ALPACAS~ALPACA CLOTHING AND ACCESSORIES~FIBER~YARN
> www.pleasantviewfarmalpacas.com desando@p...
>
> If opportunity doesn't knock, build a new
door.
>

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Re: [Alpacasite] ever thought about learning to spin?

This site is for discussion not self promotion.
wini labrecque
star weaver farm
fleecetofashion.com

__________________________________
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[Alpacasite] Re: Thinking out loud - Food for thought

I too have been thinking about this topic lately. You mentioned the
husband with complications from surgery...they are friends of mine
and they have been on my mind a lot. My frustration has been that I
don't live close enough to help out on a regular basis.

I think it is important for us to establish relationships with other
alpaca owners---and the scenarios you mentioned are a perfect example
of why this is important.

I know of several ranches that have established informal groups in
their geographic area for such things as support, combined buying
power, etc. This is something I would like to spearhead with other
alpaca ranches within our geographic area.

Life is uncertain and unplanned events do happen. I think you are on
track in thinking about contingency plans. Also, from the people I
have met throughout the alpaca community, I am sure many would come
to the aid of another alpaca owner in need.

Dianna Jordan
www.alpacasomersetfarm.com
dianna@alpacasomersetfarm.com

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, "Sandy Acres Alpacas"
<janice@s...> wrote:
>
> I know, dangerous ground, Janice is thinking....
>
> Seriously, I was reading on another site how a man with health
> problems is "dumping" his llamas. None of us is getting any
> younger, some of us are already facing health problems or have
> health problems in members of our families. Not only that, but our
> animals are getting older too....
>
> I've spoken to a great many alpaca owners in the past few days.
> Everyone that I've spoken to has made the point that our alpacas
are
> such a source of comfort and stress relief. What happens to that
> comfort if we are faced with a catastrophic illness in ourselves or
> a family member??
>
> I think that most of us alpaca owners fall into 3 categories.
> Partners where one of them does most of the alpaca care, partners
> where they both share the alpaca care and those fortunate enough to
> be able to hire help. What happens if one of those partners gets
> sick or worse, dies???
>
> I know that I have many alpaca business aquaintences. I also have
a
> few dear freinds that are also alpaca owners that I could rely on
> for a little while if I needed to. I also know that facing a
> catastrophic illness, surgery or decline in health would be
> devastating, but also the thought of having to get rid of my herd
at
> firesale prices would be just as devastating at an already
> incredibly stressful time. It would be hard to ask for someone to
> care for my animals, but even harder to sell them off, and alpacas
> don't fly off the shelf under ordinary circumstances, do they?
>
> What are the options? How many of us have a plan for the care of
> our animals if we are faced with something like this?
>
> I know that if the owners of one of our local ranches were to face
> something like this, I would offer to do whatever I could to help
> out with their herd for as long as they needed me to.
>
> There is a woman whose husband just had surgery that ended up with
> major complications. She spent most of her time at the hospital
> with her husband. Who was there to help with her herd? I've heard
> of another person who is facing chemotherapy? Who will be there to
> help with their herd? Wouldn't it be nice to be able to say "I'll
> take care of your herd, you just get better?" I realize that that
> isn't possible for everyone, that we all have our own herds and our
> own lives. But, gosh, it sure would be nice to know that if I were
> sick, that I wouldn't have to sell off my beloved animals, my
source
> of comfort and stress relief, at a time when everything else is
> going to hell.
>
> What happens in other livestock industries when something like this
> happens to a rancher or farmer? Are they forced to sell of their
> dairy herd or pig ranch? Or do other ranches help them out? I
just
> don't know.
>
> Do you think that most alpaca ranches have a network of ranches in
> which to rely on in a situation such as this, or are more
> ranches "on their own" when it comes down to it? Would you rely on
> friends or be willing to ask a total stranger for help if you knew
> that they might be willing?
>
> I know that many of you have joined the emergency network, and many
> more of you have listed your ability to help others here on
> alpacasite. I think that you all have considered the financial and
> physical implications of offering this kind of help. I'm NOT
asking
> for volunteers for anything. I'm just wondering if we have
> considered this possibility and have a plan for it's eventuality...
>
> Thanks for listening to my ramblings. I'm not very articlulate,
and
> I really wish I had the words to be able to say what I'm thinking,
> but I hope that I got my ideas across. It's been on my mind for
> some time now, and I had to put it down in writing.
>
> Off to sit in the pasture and enjoy my wonderful animals.
>
> Janice Mortimer
> Sandy Acres Alpacas
> Escalon CA
> 209-505-2959
> www.sandyacresalpacas.com
> www.camelidemergencynetwork.com
> janice@s...
>

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[Alpacasite] Re: Breeding Maidens (again)

John,

After reading the post regarding Dr Cotton's assertion that the hymen
will eventually break down, why is that you consider it a sign of
unsoundness?

Heidi Christensen
Graham WA

>
> We need animals that are reproductively sound and that are hardy
and
> healthy. That may in fact require some changes in breeding
> selections, and some significant culling - even of some very nice
> looking animals.

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[Alpacasite] Re: Private Replies

At least on my browser and AOL, at the top of the reply message is a
drop down menu with Alpacasite, the person who wrote the message (in
this case, Steve) and Alpacasite-owner (Rick, I would assume). You
can pick whom to send it to without cutting or pasteing or clicking
on a link. I would think it doens't go into your address book either.

Heidi Christensen
Graham WA

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hull, TimberLake Farms.
Inc" <steve@t...> wrote:
>
> Camile, look at my sig line below. It has my website and an e-
mail
> address (both in blue) that are "hyperlinks". If you click on one
of
> them it will direct you to the website or to your e-mail system
with
> my e-mail address already in the "to" section of the e-mail.
>
> Try it and see.
>
> You can do the same with your e-mail, just type in your e-mail
> exactly like this: mailto:desando@p...
>
>
> Steve H.
>
>
>
> At 08:49 AM 11/23/2005, you wrote:
> >If we put our return address in our signature, can that be
clicked on for
> >private replies also?
> >
> > PLEASANT VIEW FARM SURI ALPACAS ~ CAMILLE DESANDO, OWNER
> > Gilbert, PA ~ PHONE: 610-681-3759
> > SURI ALPACAS~ALPACA CLOTHING AND ACCESSORIES~FIBER~YARN
> > www.pleasantviewfarmalpacas.com desando@p...
> >
> > If opportunity doesn't knock, build a new
door.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of
> >the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each
> >message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or
Yahoo.
> >
> >
> >
> >List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@a...
> >http://aaalpacas.com
> >
> >
> >
> >TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Steve . . . .
>
> TimberLake Farms, Inc.
> Tom Cameron, D.V.M. & Steve Hull, Ph.D.
> Edmond, Oklahoma
>
> A Full Service Alpaca Farm Including Seminars And Consulting
>
> www.timberlakefarms.net
>
> e-mails: mailto:steve@t...
> mailto:tom@t...
>
> Farm Telephone: 405 341-8444
> Farm Cell Telephone: 405 550-3023
> Farm Fax: 405 330-8444
>
> note: opinions made here are not and cannot be construed to be
> specific veterinary advice, diagnosis or treatments. Both Tom and
> Steve strongly suggest always checking with your own veterinarian.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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[Alpacasite] Re: Breeding Maidens (again)

--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, Tim Wilson <tpwilson2@a...> wrote:
>
>
>
> As far as to whether intact hymens are heritable I suspect that we
know
> far too little as of today to postulate such a theory and as such it
is
> pure speculation on our part. But if it is found to be heritable I
would
> certainly encourage breeders to breed against such a trait.
>

I think that you will find that in most species most things associated
with the reproductive system are highly heritable. Given that, I
would error on the side of caution myself.

That said, I have never paid a vet to examine a maiden prior to
breeding, and to my knowledge I have never had an issue with a hymen
as has been discussed here.

If, as an industry, we are truly interested in developing a fiber
based future, we really need to focus our breeding on production
traits. By this I mean we need animals that require the least amount
of intervention possible. It will become a numbers game in many ways,
and each animal may produce only $50-$75 worth of fleece a year. If
that is the case, then the costs of keeping the animal will need to be
sugnificantly lower than that.

The current industry practices are not sustainable. $25-30 per head
for shearing is one example. Throw in pharmacutical parasite control,
specialized feeds, routine veterinary interventions, vitamin
supplements, specialized mineral supplements, etc., and any chance of
a profit has vanished.

We need animals that are reproductively sound and that are hardy and
healthy. That may in fact require some changes in breeding
selections, and some significant culling - even of some very nice
looking animals.

I think you will find in other livestock endeavors that many problems
we see addressed repeatedly on alpacasite would not be tolerated.
Prolapses, hernias, consistently slipped pregnancies, poor milkers
requiring hand feeding, still births - the list is actually pretty
lengthy - all of these would be grounds for permanent culling,
particularly if the issue showed up more than once, or more than one
of the issues were experienced in the same animal.

In short, I sometimes worry that we are breeding for a very fragile
National herd in the quest for reduced micron and increased ribbons.

And, of course, this returns once again to the issue of BS, since many
of the issues I list above will/can not be contained in a simple
description of the "ideal" animal.

John Merrell
Gateway Farm Alpacas
http://www.gateway-alpacas.com
Alpaca, a natural elegance...

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Re: [Alpacasite] Re: Registered Names/Herd Identifiers

John, Neil & Lona,

I agree that using herd identifiers with simple initials seems to be
most appropriate but I cannot fault someone if they want to use a
complete farm name (and I am not faulting Lona's opinion either). I was
more interested in Lona's apparent reluctance to even buy an animal if
it had a complete farm name in it's name (and I understand she has
bought these types of animals in the past but reading between the lines
of her post it appears that she has a definite reluctance to do so -
especially for males).

One thing to remember that even if one can't identify the herd ID (and I
suspect many/most would have no clue who SFA is) you can always look on
the ARI certificate and find who owned the dam at time of birth of the
cria. This is a very telling clue.

Tim Wilson
Sterling Forrest Alpacas
Chagrin Falls, OH

mpcpneilp wrote:

>John,
>
>I like farm identifiers for 2 reasons. Like you, I rarely recognize
>what the letters stand for. However, when I have an interest in a
>particular animal I will take the time to track that information
>down. Without the identifier it would be very hit or miss if I would
>EVER find the small farm that produced a particularly excellent
>animal.
>
>Beyond that....................All the neat names would be taken
>already! Names such as, "Black Thunder"!! "Apollo"!! "Silver________"
>(your fill in the blank) would be used once and only once. Put a farm
>identifier in front of these neat names and we can all use them ;-)
>
>Signing off for the weekend folks. My internet connection continues
>to be down at home. See you all on Monday, and Happy Thanksgiving.
>
>Neil
>A Paca Fun Farm
>Mt. Airy, Maryland
>Sugarloaf Mountain, Maryland
>www.apacafunfarm.com
>--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, John Robinson <jmr@h...> wrote:
>
>
>>Hi All,
>>
>>I thought I might jump in here and mention that there are some
>>
>>
>farms
>
>
>>who can not use initials when it comes to a herd identifier. In
>>
>>
>our
>
>
>>case we have to use HR Alpaca's because both HR and HRA were
>>
>>
>already
>
>
>>taken.
>>
>>I'd also like to add that with the exception of three identifiers
>>listed below, I don't recognize any of the others. In order for a
>>farm's initials to be easily identifiable it would need to do quite
>>
>>
>a
>
>
>>bit of advertising, aside from registering animals, to brand their
>>farm. It would make all of these other identifiers a moot point if
>>someone isn't able to recognize the farm they represent. With the
>>exception of being able to duplicate names in the registry and
>>
>>
>using
>
>
>>the initials to differentiate between two animals with the same
>>
>>
>name,
>
>
>>they're obsolete, wouldn't you say?
>>
>>
>>John Robinson
>>HR ALPACAS & SURI LLAMAS
>>OR
>>
>>Lona Wrote...
>>
>>We have purchased alpacas with the full farm name in the animals
>>registered
>>name but it just seems to be a bit of overkill. Most will know whose
>>identifier specific initials are (ATV, AABC, MFI, OAR, PVA, AFA,
>>
>>
>etc) so
>
>
>>what is the point in the entire name being used? I am NOT saying
>>
>>
>it
>
>
>>is wrong
>>but it is just an issue for me that I tend to avoid in my purchases,
>>especially if it is a stud male.
>>
>>
>>
>>When I mentioned the above a few years ago to a newer alpaca
>>
>>
>breeder,
>
>
>>they
>>immediately changed from using their farm name to initials and I
>>continue to
>>purchase from them.
>>
>>
>>
>>Yes, we have purchased an animal whose name was subsequently
>>
>>
>changed.
>
>
>>Lona
>>ALPACAS of Tualatin Valley, LLC - Since 1988
>>Buy N. American for "Pure Perfection"T
>> <http://www.alpacatv.com/> www.AlpacaTV.com
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>
>
>
>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
>http://aaalpacas.com
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [Alpacasite] Re: Breeding Maidens (again)

John,

Why would it be necessary to have a vet check and see if a maiden is
reproductively ready, clean and prepared to breed? To ensure that the
female is healthy and reproductively sound - of course!

As far as having experiences with intact hymens in maidens I am not a
good person to answer this question since we have only bred 7 maidens in
our seven years and only one was found to have had an intact hymen (or
at least partially intact - I can't say since I did not do the exam - my
vet did). This maiden was found to be clean, had a mature follicle and
took on the first breeding. She delivered a healthy cria 11 months later
and has been rebreed each year since then with no complications.

As far as to whether intact hymens are heritable I suspect that we know
far too little as of today to postulate such a theory and as such it is
pure speculation on our part. But if it is found to be heritable I would
certainly encourage breeders to breed against such a trait.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

Tim Wilson
Sterling Forrest Alpacas
Chagrin Falls, OH

gatewayfarm wrote:

>--- In Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com, Tim Wilson <tpwilson2@a...> wrote:
>
>
>>I would consider
>>checking and breaking a hymen, if found, to be standard procedure on
>>
>>
>all
>
>
>>maidens.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Why should this be necessary in a healthy, reproductively sound
>animal?
>
>And a follow up for those experiencing these issues with intact hymens
>- Is this a heritable trait? If so, I would think that this would be
>something we would want to very strongly select against, especially if
>we are trying to breed production animals.
>
>John Merrell
>Gateway Farm Alpacas
>http://www.gateway-alpacas.com
>Alpaca, a natural elegance...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>
>
>
>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
>http://aaalpacas.com
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [Alpacasite] Re: Vaccinations

Jane, this is an excellent idea! Can you give us more of the
specifics? For example, what is the exact type of vitamin
concentration and type. Normally, vits A, D and E will not solvate
in saline as they are oil soluble. But there are alternate forms of
the vitamins that are conjugated and thus are water soluble.

Great information.

Steve H.

At 04:55 PM 11/23/2005, you wrote:
>whenever we need to use the injectable A,D/E, we get the saline
>based formula which has to be mixed up at a compounding pharmacy. A
>little more trouble than the "off the shelf" stuff, but it is my
>understanding that most allergic reactions are due to the suspension
>agent (an oil) rather than to the medicine (whether AD/E or CD/T
>etc). ALpacas magazine had an article a few years ago on a farm that
>lost more than a few crias to anaphylactic shock after A,D/E
>shots. Also remember that an allergic reaction can occur up to an
>hour or two post dose! Keep the epi on hand after giving shots, and
>hang around for a while, watching those animals. Take care, Jane Levene
>
>--
>Jefferson Farms alpacas and LLamas
>Denver CO
>303-988-3080
>jlevene@comcast.net
>
>-------------- Original message --------------
>
> >
> > This was what I was thinking about when I read the thread about
> > injectable A,D and E. Everything has risks, and benefits, and strange
> > after 40 years of no problems, suddenly there is a problem.
> >
> > Heidi Christensen
> > Graham WA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > The use of a vaccine, or any drug, is always a risk versus benefit
> > > situation. If you simply follow a "rule" without understanding the
> > > risks and benefits behind the action you have the potential to
> > > increase bad outcomes.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of
> the person
> > posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in
> no way reflect
> > the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
> >
> >
> >
> > List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas
> alpacas@alpacaweb.com
> > http://aaalpacas.com
> >
> >
> >
> > TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of
>the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each
>message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>
>
>
>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
>http://aaalpacas.com
>
>
>
>TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Steve . . . .

TimberLake Farms, Inc.
Tom Cameron, D.V.M. & Steve Hull, Ph.D.
Edmond, Oklahoma

A Full Service Alpaca Farm Including Seminars And Consulting

www.timberlakefarms.net

e-mails: mailto:steve@timberlakefarms.net
mailto:tom@timberlakefarms.net

Farm Telephone: 405 341-8444
Farm Cell Telephone: 405 550-3023
Farm Fax: 405 330-8444

note: opinions made here are not and cannot be construed to be
specific veterinary advice, diagnosis or treatments. Both Tom and
Steve strongly suggest always checking with your own veterinarian.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [Alpacasite] Re: Vaccinations

whenever we need to use the injectable A,D/E, we get the saline based formula which has to be mixed up at a compounding pharmacy. A little more trouble than the "off the shelf" stuff, but it is my understanding that most allergic reactions are due to the suspension agent (an oil) rather than to the medicine (whether AD/E or CD/T etc). ALpacas magazine had an article a few years ago on a farm that lost more than a few crias to anaphylactic shock after A,D/E shots. Also remember that an allergic reaction can occur up to an hour or two post dose! Keep the epi on hand after giving shots, and hang around for a while, watching those animals. Take care, Jane Levene

--
Jefferson Farms alpacas and LLamas
Denver CO
303-988-3080
jlevene@comcast.net

-------------- Original message --------------

>
> This was what I was thinking about when I read the thread about
> injectable A,D and E. Everything has risks, and benefits, and strange
> after 40 years of no problems, suddenly there is a problem.
>
> Heidi Christensen
> Graham WA
>
>
>
>
>
> > The use of a vaccine, or any drug, is always a risk versus benefit
> > situation. If you simply follow a "rule" without understanding the
> > risks and benefits behind the action you have the potential to
> > increase bad outcomes.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person
> posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way reflect
> the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>
>
>
> List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
> http://aaalpacas.com
>
>
>
> TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [Alpacasite] Re: Breeding Maidens (again)

I agree wholeheartedly that maidens should be allowed to mature completely
before their first breeding, and that means at least 2 years, perhaps 3. We
seem to have been pressured into earlier breeding by financial
considerations (greed?) and the practices of other countries. Later
breeding can lead to better health, easier birthing, better milking ability,
continued structural soundness and healthy longevity.

Barrie Hanslip
Sooke, BC
>
> About the issue of hymens though -- after listening to a very
> passionate presentation by Dr Toni Cotton, Bill and I have backed
> off breeding our maidens until around 2 years of age. Dr Cotton
> insists that a hymen is a sign of sexual immaturity, and that the
> hymen will break down on its own (without the help of a penis or
> gloved hand) when the animal is mature -- and that kushing is not a
> sign of maturity.
>
> Warmest Regards,
> Lisa

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Re: Re: [Alpacasite] Registered Names

'Well I bought a juniour herdsire named "prince valiant". Gag me with a
spoon! We changed it to remington steele ( he's steel grey). He's Remi for
short. We've only changed two names in ten years. I was at a show, and the
winner of one of the classes was " golden shower". Need I say more???
ellen/colrain

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Re: [Alpacasite] Re: Name Changes

my understanding is that ILR will allow name changes with the approval of
the breeder, before the animal has progeny on the ground. The one rule I
know about is you may change the "call" name, but not remove a breeders farm
name or identifier. Of course they may have added new rules I'm not aware
of... ellen/colrain

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Re: Re: [Alpacasite] Registered Names - previously (How to determine alpaca heritage?)

I'm with you, Jan!
Who wants an identifier of NAA!!!??
But New Age is short, and it works!

Barbara

From: Jan Sherrill <pacamom@lightspeed.net>
Date: 2005/11/23 Wed AM 11:38:05 PST
To: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Alpacasite] Registered Names - previously (How to determine
alpaca heritage?)

Barbara Zachary
New Age Alpacas
Atascadero, CA 93422

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Re: [Alpacasite] Name Changes

Lona, et al,
Can I ask why anyone would want to change a name that has been given
by the person who was responsible for creating this animal?
Cheers,
Ian Watt

On Nov 23, 2005, at 9:47 AM, Lona Nelsen Frank wrote:

> Good morning Camille,
>
>
>
> You will have to ask ARI about name changing and time frames. I am
> certain
> that it is not as easy to change names as one thinks and the farm
> that named
> the animal may be very offended if you asked to do so. Also, if an
> animal
> has shown or produced offspring it is highly unlikely that could
> happen.
>
>
>
> Happy Thanksgiving!
>
> Lona
> ALPACAS of Tualatin Valley, LLC - Since 1988
> Buy N. American for "Pure Perfection"T
> <http://www.alpacatv.com/> www.AlpacaTV.com
>
> _____
>
> From: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Pleasant View Farm
> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 6:52 AM
> To: alpacasite
> Subject: [Alpacasite] Name Changes
>
>
>
> Lona, if we wish to, with the permission of the breeder, remove a
> farm name,
>
> is there still a limited time (alpaca's age) during which this can
> be done?
>
> Camille
>
> PLEASANT VIEW FARM SURI ALPACAS ~ CAMILLE DESANDO, OWNER
> Gilbert, PA ~ PHONE: 610-681-3759
> SURI ALPACAS~ALPACA CLOTHING AND ACCESSORIES~FIBER~YARN
> www.pleasantviewfarmalpacas.com desando@ptd.net
>
> If opportunity doesn't knock, build a new
> door.
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Re: [Alpacasite] ever thought about learning to spin?

One woman on this list bought a symphony for her daughter in law from me.
The wheels I sell come with a video.

Sharon Tree

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Re: [Alpacasite] ever thought about learning to spin?

Kathryn

I have also just started spinning and am as surprised as you with how easy
and fun it is. I have blended my dog ( Leonberger) and Alpaca together.
What a beautiful blend. I made 2 bobbins of it and plied it together. I
even have started to crochet it. I cant believe me who is not talented or
patient enough to sit still can make something from the fiber and fur I
have.

I use a Louet wheel and love it. So yes anyone who has thought about it
find a spinning guild and take some lessons you will love it.

It has certainly helped me understand how the fiber feels to work with.

Lori
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kathryn Coursey" <kathryn@coursey.org>
To: <Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 8:46 PM
Subject: [Alpacasite] ever thought about learning to spin?

> Just a word to those who have thought about it but like me, were
> intimidated by the amount of knowledge and time it required.
>
> I bought and 'played' with a drop spindle. I watched others spin when i
> had
> the chance but could never gather enough courage to give it a try myself.
>
> I started a fiber group and two of the members spin and we developed a
> great
> trading system. On has sheep, one had mohair goats and another has a
> couple
> of alpacas. The two spinners of the group found that they could spin
> easily
> from batts I card and we happily blended, I carded and they spun. They
> were
> after me to learn to spin but I just wasn't ready yet.
>
> I had decided though, that when I WAS ready it would be a 'BABE' as the
> price was low and the reports were that it was easy to learn on... I
> thought
> "easy by WHO'S opinion???!" Low though the price may be, I just couldn't
> see spending the $$ when I was so unsure I'd be able to learn it.
>
> One of the members of my group made me an offer I could not refuse... the
> very model of "BABE" that I was wanting.. and at a price I could not
> refuse.
> . I bought it....
>
> Now I wonder... why did I wait so LONG??!!! It really IS easy!!! Oh, don't
> get me wrong... what I first produced looked like gorilla ch*t in a
> rainstorm BUT.... even I can see how fast I am getting better!
>
> So... those of you who have been secretly thinking about it... and envying
> those who so easily spin raw fiber into beautiful yarn..... give it a try!
> Ask around and do a search for fiber groups in your area....
>
> Kathryn & Robert Coursey
> Chipola Alpacas
> in the Panhandle of Florida
> www.chipolaalpacas.com
> (850) 639-6809
> i am a source for weeping willow trees
> and white mulberry trees.
>
> Some folks are like Slinkies,
> Not good for much,
> But ya just can't help but smile
> When you see one tumble down the
> stairs.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no
> way reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
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> List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas
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Re: [Alpacasite] Registered Names - previously (How to determine alpaca heritage?)

Everyone has a different situation. The initials for our name had
already been used, plus I don't think that I'd like to have CA in
front of all my animals names! So we ended up just with the word
Celestial as our breeder identifier and it seems to work -not too
long or unwieldy.

Jan Sherrill
Celestial Alpacas
Central Coast of California
Templeton

>Good morning Tim,
>
>
>
>We have purchased alpacas with the full farm name in the animals registered
>name but it just seems to be a bit of overkill. Most will know whose
>identifier specific initials are (ATV, AABC, MFI, OAR, PVA, AFA, etc) so
>what is the point in the entire name being used? I am NOT saying it is wrong
>but it is just an issue for me that I tend to avoid in my purchases,
>especially if it is a stud male.
>
>
>
>When I mentioned the above a few years ago to a newer alpaca breeder, they
>immediately changed from using their farm name to initials and I continue to
>purchase from them.
>
>
>
>Yes, we have purchased an animal whose name was subsequently changed.
>
>Lona
>ALPACAS of Tualatin Valley, LLC - Since 1988
>Buy N. American for "Pure Perfection"T
><<http://www.alpacatv.com/>http://www.alpacatv.com/> www.AlpacaTV.com
>
> _____
>
>From: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com] On
>Behalf Of Tim Wilson
>Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 6:09 PM
>To: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Alpacasite] How to determine alpaca heritage?
>
>
>
>Lona,
>
>Do I understand you correctly to say that you would not purchase an
>animal with a complete farm name on it's pedigree even if it met your
>quality requirements and breeding goal needs?
>
>If so - interesting perspective. Certainly would make me step back and
>re-evaluate my naming strategy.
>
>Do any other farms have this same thinking about names?
>
>Lona - have you ever considered buying an alpaca and paying to change
>it's name?
>
>Tim Wilson
>Sterling Forrest Alpacas
>Chagrin Falls, OH
>
>Lona Nelsen Frank wrote:
>
>>Ian,
>>
>>
>>
>>I agree that you should have your herd identifier preceding your animals
>>name on the registration but I will tell you that I RARELY purchase an
>>animal that has the full farm name in it and I purchase several every year.
>>
>>
>>
>>In other words; I don't mind purchasing an animal called "ATV Kipling" but
>>would not be interested in purchasing an animal named "ALPACAS of Tualatin
>>Valley, LLC Kipling".
>>
>>Lona
>>ALPACAS of Tualatin Valley, LLC - Since 1988
>>Buy N. American for "Pure Perfection"T
>> <<http://www.alpacatv.com/>http://www.alpacatv.com/> www.AlpacaTV.com
>>
>> _____
>>
>>From: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com] On
>>Behalf Of Ian Watt
>>Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 4:19 PM
>>To: Alpacasite@yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: Re: [Alpacasite] How to determine alpaca heritage?
>>
>>
>>
>>Tim,
>>Ken answered your query but I will fill it out a little.
> >Australian preface every animal's name with the name of their
> >business - in your case each registration would carry the words
> >Sterling Forrest Alpacas (the registrar would even probably ask if
>>you knew your spelled Forest incorrectly!) in front of every alpaca
>>registered by you.. This name is applied for at the time of joining
>>the AAA and cannot be duplicated. Neither can it contain any South
>>American country name nor the name of any "line' such as Allianza,
>>Accoyo, etc.
>>It has always bemused me that many American breeders do not use their
>>business name in front of their animals name when registering cria.
>>I tell my classes that every cria is the direct result of a thought
>>out and considered decision by a breeder - had that decision not been
>>made, any cria would not be here. It seems to me that not appending
>>your business name to that animal that has been created by your
>>decision is not to do justice to the decision in the first place PLUS
>>it is looooong term advertising (in that it stays on the pedigree for
>>ever!).
>>I do think however that ARI's position on others being able to use
> >your business name just because you do not pay the fee required, is a
>>bit disingenuous.
>>Cheers,
>>Ian Watt
>>On Nov 19, 2005, at 6:54 AM, Tim Wilson wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Ian,
>>>
>>>To what extent does the AAA limit the use of names? Would I be able to
>>>use SFA (my herd identifier for my farm Sterling Forrest Alpacas)? Do
>>>they restrict the use of other words?
>>>
>>>Tim Wilson
>>>Sterling Forrest Alpacas
>>>Chagrin Falls, OH
>>>
>>>Ian Watt wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Tim,
>>>>Just an interesting aside - the Australian register does not allow
>>>>the use of identifiers such as accoyo in animal names.
>>>>How much easier would life be (for American Alpaca breeders/ if that
>>>>were the practice here!
>>>>Cheers,
>>>>Ian Watt
>>>>On Nov 18, 2005, at 5:08 PM, Tim Wilson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Josh,
>>>>>
>>>>>Like Yogi Berra once said "this is deja vu all over again".
>>>>>
>>>>>I say that because before I got into alpacas 8 years ago I asked
>>>>>this
>>>>>group (at least this forum - many people come and go) the very same
>>>>>question. You wouldn't believe the firestorm it caused back then.
>>>>>I am
>>>>>glad to see it is a non starter these days (as it should be).
>>>>>
>>>>>Please be aware that we here in the US are rather unsure of our
>>>>>alpacas
>>>>>"heritage" prior to being imported into the US. Despite the
>>>>>marketing
>>>>>hype that the importers used at the time of importation from Peru we
>>>>>have to realize that the animals that ultimately made it into the US
>>>>>more than likely came from many different farms and from different
>>>>>countries. The "Country of Origin" is a misnomer. Read your ARI
>>>>>certificate closely, it only says "Country where screened" and then
>>>>>lists either Chile, Bolivia or Peru. This does not mean that that
>>>>>particular animal CAME from that country, just that it was the
>>>>>country
>>>>>where it resided when screened.
>>>>>
>>>>>Also, be aware that the use of Accoyo does not designate a
>>>>>country of
>>>>>origin nor a country of screening only that it means (not always
>>>>>accurately so) that the animal is a descendent of an animal that had
>>>>>been bred at Don Julio's farm in Peru. Ken makes a credible argument
>>>>>that since Don Julio is not making the breeding decisions on the
>>>>>animals
>>>>>that were exported from his farm and program we might be remiss is
>>>>>continuing to use his farm name. I am just as guilty as most.
>>>>>Something
>>>>>to think about though.
>>>>>
>>>>>So what does it mean? That you should focus on the quality of the
>>>>>animal
>>>>>in front of you and not get caught up in the hype of country of
>>>>>origin.
>>>>>Quality is quality regardless of the labels we put on them.
>>>>>
>>>>>Tim Wilson
>>>>>Sterling Forrest Alpacas
>>>>>Chagrin Falls, OH
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>eurekaalpaca wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I was wondering what the official process is for determining alpaca
>>>>>>heritage?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>A couple examples:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If you breed a (7/8 Peruvian 1/8 Bolivian) to a Full Peruvian the
>>>>>>offspring would be?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If you breed a (3/4 Peruvian 1/8 Bolivian 1/8 Chilean)to a Full
>>>>>>Accoyo
>>>>>>Peruvian the offspring would be?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Let me know if there is a standard method of determining this
>>>>>>and if
>>>>>>there are any other anomalies to watch out for when determining
>>>>>>heritage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Any information would be appreciated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Josh
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of
>>>>>>the person posting the message. The accuracy and content of each
>>>>>>message in no way reflect the opinions of the administrator or
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas
>>>>>>alpacas@alpacaweb.com
>>>>>><http://aaalpacas.com>http://aaalpacas.com
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>>
>>
>>
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>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>Opinions and postings on this list are the sole responsibility of the person
>posting the message. The accuracy and content of each message in no way
>reflect the opinions of the administrator or Yahoo.
>
>
>
>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
><http://aaalpacas.com>http://aaalpacas.com
>
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>TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit
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>Business
><<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Business+finance+course&w1=Business+fin>http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Business+finance+course&w1=Business+fin
>ance+course&w2=Business+to+business+finance&w3=Small+business+finance&w4=Bus
>iness+finance+consultant&w5=Business+finance+schools&w6=Business+finance+sch
>ools&c=6&s=184&.sig=hKyq8vmBshHiprwDbrhHoQ> finance course
>
>Business
><<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Business+to+business+finance&w1=Busines>http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Business+to+business+finance&w1=Busines
>s+finance+course&w2=Business+to+business+finance&w3=Small+business+finance&w
>4=Business+finance+consultant&w5=Business+finance+schools&w6=Business+financ
>e+schools&c=6&s=184&.sig=8akn1HuTuB_h9FTVmNsDbA> to business finance
>
>Small
><<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Small+business+finance&w1=Business+fina>http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Small+business+finance&w1=Business+fina
>nce+course&w2=Business+to+business+finance&w3=Small+business+finance&w4=Busi
>ness+finance+consultant&w5=Business+finance+schools&w6=Business+finance+scho
>ols&c=6&s=184&.sig=RfE0BUkDCd4ntuKrNQ5g5g> business finance
>
>
>Business
><<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Business+finance+consultant&w1=Business>http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Business+finance+consultant&w1=Business
>+finance+course&w2=Business+to+business+finance&w3=Small+business+finance&w4
>=Business+finance+consultant&w5=Business+finance+schools&w6=Business+finance
>+schools&c=6&s=184&.sig=nJKO4-7txV6PQuWxom3YKg> finance consultant
>
>Business
><<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Business+finance+schools&w1=Business+fi>http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Business+finance+schools&w1=Business+fi
>nance+course&w2=Business+to+business+finance&w3=Small+business+finance&w4=Bu
>siness+finance+consultant&w5=Business+finance+schools&w6=Business+finance+sc
>hools&c=6&s=184&.sig=2Gv_cqwjtL0LMzV-V6L7Sw> finance schools
>
>Business
><<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Business+finance+schools&w1=Business+fi>http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Business+finance+schools&w1=Business+fi
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>siness+finance+consultant&w5=Business+finance+schools&w6=Business+finance+sc
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>
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>
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>List administrator - Rick Horn - All American Alpacas alpacas@alpacaweb.com
><http://aaalpacas.com>http://aaalpacas.com
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>TO CHANGE OPTIONS visit
><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alpacasite/join
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>SPONSORED LINKS
><"'"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Business+finance+course&w1=Business+finance+course&w2=Business+to+business+finance&w3=Small+business+finance&w4=Business+finance+consultant&w5=Business+finance+schools&w6=Business+finance+schools&c=6&s=184&.sig=hKyq8>Business
>finance course
><"'"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Business+to+business+finance&w1=Business+finance+course&w2=Business+to+business+finance&w3=Small+business+finance&w4=Business+finance+consultant&w5=Business+finance+schools&w6=Business+finance+schools&c=6&s=184&.sig=>Business
>to business finance
><"'"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Small+business+finance&w1=Business+finance+course&w2=Business+to+business+finance&w3=Small+business+finance&w4=Business+finance+consultant&w5=Business+finance+schools&w6=Business+finance+schools&c=6&s=184&.sig=RfE0BU>Small
>business finance
><"'"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Business+finance+consultant&w1=Business+finance+course&w2=Business+to+business+finance&w3=Small+business+finance&w4=Business+finance+consultant&w5=Business+finance+schools&w6=Business+finance+schools&c=6&s=184&.sig=n>Business
>finance consultant
><"'"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Business+finance+schools&w1=Business+finance+course&w2=Business+to+business+finance&w3=Small+business+finance&w4=Business+finance+consultant&w5=Business+finance+schools&w6=Business+finance+schools&c=6&s=184&.sig=2Gv_>Business
>finance schools
><"'"http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Business+finance+schools&w1=Business+finance+course&w2=Business+to+business+finance&w3=Small+business+finance&w4=Business+finance+consultant&w5=Business+finance+schools&w6=Business+finance+schools&c=6&s=184&.sig=2Gv_>Business
>finance schools
>
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--
Jan Sherrill
Celestial Alpacas
Central Coast of California
805/238-2628

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