alpacas: 12/22/08

Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: FEEd- A great Alpaca feed

Hmm. No offense taken if in fact none was intended. I have seen this
very remark far too many times not to take it personally.

I do wonder though, how can you really say that MOST fiber blowout is
caused by overfeeding? Where is your empirical research to prove that?
Please refrain from making those statements without at least anecdotal
proof. And proof that you can point to, as we can with our herd.

Please refrain from making gross accusations and generalizations in the
future. Statements I make are about my own herd and my own
observations. Others, I cite scientific papers and references. Your
statement did neither, except to attempt to negate all of my statements
up to that point. I won't stand for it! Say it ain't so!

Please, you too, have the best of holidays and receive the abundance of
the universe that is due to your.

Heather

On Dec 22, 2008, at 7:47 PM, bluebirdhills@voyager.net wrote:

>
>
> No Offense Intended Heather,
> Was replying to Steve's post not
> yours. It is felt by many in this industry that most fiber blowout
> is caused by overfeeding, or that we provide better nutrition than
> what
> alpacas experienced in South America, and likewise you can "fine
> an alpaca down" by not feeding much at all. In fact the
> extreme is referred to as starvation fineness, but I don't want to
> imply that this is what is happening in your case.
>
> There is no
> doubt that nutrition affects fiber quality, and there is no doubt it
> does
> affect the health of the critter. Don't have any inclination at all to
> challenge your results, Heather,and believe you completely, but I
> have heard many an unsuspecting new owner repeat that their particular
> purchase doesn't have the quality fleece it was purported to have by
> the
> seller because of fiber blowout, when most likely it is the nature of
> that
> alpaca to coarsen with age.
>
> I have plenty of coarse alpacas on
> my farm that had great microns at an early age. They coarsened as they
> grew up and now I am seeking the genetics of alpacas that have
> retained
> their fineness. If you look at most of the ads, the microns reported
> are
> from the first year or two of life.
>
> Sorry to have caused the
> misunderstanding. Have a Merry Christmas!
>
> Laurel
> Bluebird
> Hills Farm
> Springfield, Ohio
> 937-206-3936
>
> > That's
> funny Laurel,
> > We were feeding our old pellet as directed. We
> have no interest in
> > overfeeding, saying so and implying that
> was the cause of our problems
> > is insulting.
> >
> > We lost our best female to a perforated ulcer and had those
> herd-wide
> > micron blowouts. After we stopped that feed, general
> health improved,
> > specific health problems resolved or improved,
> luster in fleece
> > returned, crimp returned, crias are now
> normal/correct birth weights
> > instead of fatties making delivery
> difficult.
> >
> > How do you account for those results? The
> previous long-time owner of
> > Aussie Rockford also changed from
> that old pellet to our custom milled
> > one, and also noticed
> increased fleece crimp, luster, depth of color,
> > which she
> stated indicated an adundance of health. Due to the superior
> >
> feed.
> >
> > Even before we started this pellet, our
> animals wouldn't touch Dynamite
> > pellets. And with the WABA
> pellet it was dicey. We haven't tried any
> > other feeds.
> >
> > Heather
> >
> > On Dec 22, 2008, at 7:19
> AM, Shouvlins wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Steve,
> >>
>
> >> No particular ingredient causes fiber blowout. It is just
> caused by
> >> eating too much in general whether it be too much
> good pasture, too
> >> much good hay, or too much supplement. I
> also personally feel that it
> >> can sometimes become a
> convenient excuse for the alpaca that is too
> >> coarse in
> micron.
> >>
> >> Laurel
> >>
> >>
> Tim & Laurel Shouvlin
> >> Bluebird Hills Farm
> >> 3617 Derr Rd.
> >> Springfield, Ohio 45503
> >> bluebirdhills@voyager.net
> >> www.bluebirdhills.com
>
> >> 937-206-3936
> >
> >
> > [Non-text
> portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: FEEd- A great Alpaca feed

No Offense Intended Heather,
Was replying to Steve's post not
yours. It is felt by many in this industry that most fiber blowout
is caused by overfeeding, or that we provide better nutrition than what
alpacas experienced in South America, and likewise you can "fine
an alpaca down" by not feeding much at all. In fact the
extreme is referred to as starvation fineness, but I don't want to
imply that this is what is happening in your case.

There is no
doubt that nutrition affects fiber quality, and there is no doubt it does
affect the health of the critter. Don't have any inclination at all to
challenge your results, Heather,and believe you completely, but I
have heard many an unsuspecting new owner repeat that their particular
purchase doesn't have the quality fleece it was purported to have by the
seller because of fiber blowout, when most likely it is the nature of that
alpaca to coarsen with age.

I have plenty of coarse alpacas on
my farm that had great microns at an early age. They coarsened as they
grew up and now I am seeking the genetics of alpacas that have retained
their fineness. If you look at most of the ads, the microns reported are
from the first year or two of life.

Sorry to have caused the
misunderstanding. Have a Merry Christmas!

Laurel
Bluebird
Hills Farm
Springfield, Ohio
937-206-3936

> That's
funny Laurel,
> We were feeding our old pellet as directed. We
have no interest in
> overfeeding, saying so and implying that
was the cause of our problems
> is insulting.
>
> We lost our best female to a perforated ulcer and had those
herd-wide
> micron blowouts. After we stopped that feed, general
health improved,
> specific health problems resolved or improved,
luster in fleece
> returned, crimp returned, crias are now
normal/correct birth weights
> instead of fatties making delivery
difficult.
>
> How do you account for those results? The
previous long-time owner of
> Aussie Rockford also changed from
that old pellet to our custom milled
> one, and also noticed
increased fleece crimp, luster, depth of color,
> which she
stated indicated an adundance of health. Due to the superior
>
feed.
>
> Even before we started this pellet, our
animals wouldn't touch Dynamite
> pellets. And with the WABA
pellet it was dicey. We haven't tried any
> other feeds.
>
> Heather
>
> On Dec 22, 2008, at 7:19
AM, Shouvlins wrote:
>
>> Hi Steve,
>>

>> No particular ingredient causes fiber blowout. It is just
caused by
>> eating too much in general whether it be too much
good pasture, too
>> much good hay, or too much supplement. I
also personally feel that it
>> can sometimes become a
convenient excuse for the alpaca that is too
>> coarse in
micron.
>>
>> Laurel
>>
>>
Tim & Laurel Shouvlin
>> Bluebird Hills Farm
>> 3617 Derr Rd.
>> Springfield, Ohio 45503
>> bluebirdhills@voyager.net
>> www.bluebirdhills.com

>> 937-206-3936
>
>
> [Non-text
portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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RE: [AlpacaTalk] RE: feeding discussion

Hi Susan,

I am in the process of trying to obtain a herd of Alpaca's and noticed you
are in Riverside so I assume Riverside County. Thought I would ask you what
are the current zoning ordinances on how many Alpacas per acre of land? Any
information would be appreciated. Thank you.

cid:A3049427-949C-404E-A7FF-531703C075D8

Sheila Gordon

Indio,CA

"If you don't stand for something, you will fall for everything."

From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of LunarStruck@aol.com
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 7:36 AM
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] RE: feeding discussion

Hi Janice - yes, the heat is definitely over here, its been cold and raining

most of last week and we have a bit more rain coming this week. We need it
badly but I hate the mud, too. I put shavings down in the alpaca houses and
it seems to work well and keep them drier. It went straight from summer to
winter here, too - my bulbs all came up last week AGAIN, third time now this

year. Weird weather.

SUSAN OLSON
Alpaca Loco
Riverside, CA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] RE: feeding discussion

To all...

Because claims periodically surface to the effect that feeding DE
(diatomaceous earth) to ruminants reduces parasite loads or replaces the use
of anthelmintics (wormers) I recommend that everyone read the following:

"There have been 4 or 5 scientific studies and the data consistently show
that diatomaceous earth does not kill worms in goats although one study did
show that at a very high level (5% of the diet), it had a slight effect.
There is speculation that it may help fecal pellets to dry out faster which
could reduce the success of eggs developing into infective L3 larvae.
Research conducted on this aspect has not been conclusive. It is very
difficult to study the claim that diatomaceous earth increases the time
between dewormings."

The above is excerpted from one of six articles published by the Southern
Consortium for Small Ruminant Parasite Control. The complete article and
related articles can be found at:

http://www.scsrpc.org/SCSRPC/Publications/part5.htm

It has been scientifically proven that feeding DE does NOT kill nor prevent
gut parasites in ruminants.

Jess

Jess & Cookie Bowers
Acres of Love Alpaca Ranch
Acres of Love Alpaca Transport
11006 N 92nd East Ave
Owasso, OK 74055-6531
(918) 829-9987
Fax (918) 272-0969
WWW.Acresoflove.com

----- Original Message -----
From: <houckj@aol.com>
To: <AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 8:55 AM
Subject: [AlpacaTalk] RE: feeding discussion

>I have found alfalfa pellets at one of my feed stores (and have DE
> ordered, no one around here carries it). So my question still
> remains.....how to add a balanced vitamin mix? I have Dr Evans mineral,
> but my supply is quite old, so even if it does have vitamins in it (I
> don't recall if it does or not) they would be degraded by now.
> My guys would not eat the alfalfa chunks; I am going to try the pellets
> to see if they will eat that. At least the alpaca formula I am
> currently feeding them has vitamins, along with all those by products.
> I will mix the two as I try to switch them over, but that will cut down
> on their vitamin intake. My gelding, the one that had "that look" last
> week is not eating well; takes a few bites and walks away. But at least
> he is eating hay and chewing his cud and looking normal....except for
> the not eating.
>
> Our weather here in NW GA has been crappy. We had no fall, just went
> right from summer to winter. I have had 14" of rain this month so we
> are just mud mud mud, everything is so soggy and muddy - ugh. Just
> miserable to get out. The wind here howled all night as well. I could
> here things blowing about. Checked the tarps on the alpaca shelters
> right before dark, as well as the tarp over the back of the horse barn
> where the winter hay is stored.........way too much money to allow it to
> get wet. Everything tight, but worried all night. 14degrees this
> morning with wind chill of minus 5. Won't break freezing all
> day.....and I have errands to run before company arrives tomorrow.
> We'll be carrying hot water in tea pots out all day to make a hole in
> all the animals water buckets.
> And this is GA! I have yet to get my fall clean up chores done so
> everything is covered with wet soggy leaves. What a mess. And more
> rain coming in Wed for the rest of the week. Can't complain I suppose
> as we have been in the grips of a major drought for the past 3/4 yrs
> now; but geez I am so tired of the rain......and being cooped up in the
> house with a hyper restless bouncing off the walls 2yo.
>
> Hey Susan, I haven't heard you complain about your heat lately.....did
> you ever get out of the upper 90s?
>
> Merry Christmas everyone
> Warmly, Janice

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] alpaca feed

Hi Wendy,
Yes, I had left that page till last... I only added the pics and text
to it last night. Maybe try hitting the re-load button on your browser?
Often, browsers load a page from the cache on your computer if you've
visited that page before. But the main thing to see is the fleece shot!
So you can just look at this image and see that change in character.
http://www.whitelotusalpacas.com/images/sciroccoFleeceNewPellet.jpg

Heather :)

On Dec 22, 2008, at 10:05 AM, Wendy Edwards wrote:

> hi Heather - when i hit your nutrition page, it is blank (except for
> the
> gorgeous alpacas) - i've tried before too and found the same blank
> page -
> says corn free etc at the top of the page but nothing under it - i
> would
> really like to read about your feed - is it my computer or is there a
> glitch
> somewhere?
>
> Wendy
> DreamWeaver Alpacas

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] alpaca feed

hi Heather - when i hit your nutrition page, it is blank (except for the
gorgeous alpacas) - i've tried before too and found the same blank page -
says corn free etc at the top of the page but nothing under it - i would
really like to read about your feed - is it my computer or is there a glitch
somewhere?

Wendy
DreamWeaver Alpacas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Heather Zeleny" <alpacatalk@westwindalpacas.com>
To: <AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 8:45 AM
Subject: [AlpacaTalk] alpaca feed

If anyone wants to see graphic proof of my claims, please take a look
at my Alpaca Nutrition page.
http://www.whitelotusalpacas.com/nutrition.html
This the difference between a grain and by-product based feed and a
premium feed.

In addition to all of the nutritional information found in The Alpaca
Field Guide, here is a wonderful page with excellent information about
dietary needs of alpacas.
http://www.alpacaresearchfoundation.org/papers_reports/
Basics%20of%20Alpaca%20Nutrition.html

Be sure to read the section regarding grain, it's about 3/4 the way
down the page. Here's some of the text on grain:

Readily available carbohydrates like grain are an energy source. They
are not a protein or mineral source (Table 4), and are to be used only
in moderation for alpaca if the animal needs more energy. Times of
higher energy (and nutrient) requirements for the alpaca include late
gestation (last one third), early lactation, growth, in extremely cold
weather and at times for the geriatric animal. Grain is commonly used
as a carrier for a mineral supplement, and daily small amounts (quarter
of a 8 ounce cup) are not a problem. Now as I am discussing this, some
of you will say that the instructions for commercial pellets will
recommend up to 0.5 kg intake. Remember that commercial pellets are
only a portion grain and most pellets are high in dehydrated alfalfa –
a forage. When purchasing a pelleted supplement, one needs to evaluate
exactly what the pellets are made of and follow the recommended levels.
Thus, one needs to be careful when defining what a grain is. When I
indicate a "quarter of a 8 ounce cup" of grain, I am talking about
whole grains such as corn, oats, barley and other grains, not
commercial pellets.

The problem with overfeeding grain to alpaca primarily deals with the
microbe population. Remember that the microbes in Compartment I
digest/ferment the cellulose from forages. They also ferment the starch
in grains. Starch is much easier to ferment than cellulose, and if too
much grain is fed, then the microbes ferment it very fast producing
large proportion of lactic acid rather than the traditional fatty acids
we talked about earlier. The pH of lactic acid is very low and can
actually burn the inside of Compartment I. In ruminants this is called
acidosis, in camelids it is called "grain-overload." The problem with
grain overload in the camelids is that by the time you see any
symptoms, it is probably too late to save the animal even with drastic
surgical measures. For example...

------------------------------------

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: feed

Morgen,
Ah, you mention Lucerne, that's what alfalfa is called in most areas
except the US. Your animals don't like it? Our alpacas go crazy for
alfalfa hay! And ours do like the pellet, since it's based on alfalfa.

We used to feed calf manna to our crias mixed 1:1 with the adult alpaca
pellet, but haven't bought that for a few years. I believe it has milk
solids in it, so we never thought it was appropriate to feed to adults.
We used to have COB on hand as well, but that really is straight corn,
oats, and barley with molasses! That's another thing we rarely ever
opened up and offered to our alpacas. We've never tried the beet pulp
to my recollection, although I could be wrong about that. I have read
that alpacas can be allergic to it, and we know sugars are not good for
the alpacas' gut.

Now, I'm speaking for my weather situation. If you live in region with
extreme cold like Wendy does, certainly a bit of supplemental starch or
sugar in the diet can be lifesaving to older and thin individuals, and
can keep weight on the rest, but use in moderation! And watch
carefully! I'm not kidding about the perforated ulcer. That reminds me,
we also lost an older dam to fatty liver a few years ago, when we fed
the WABA pellet.

Here's another idea. We used to topdress an older very skinny girl's
feed with Super 14, a horse product. She loved that and it did add some
pounds on her. I'd say give that a try.

Heather

On Dec 22, 2008, at 8:27 AM, dreamwoodalpacas wrote:

> Dear Heather,
>
> As a basis for the feed, i.e. instead of pellets, what you say
> definatley makes sense. My situation is different as I wanted to use
> the alfalfa pellets instead of alfalfa hay to put weight on 1 or two
> getting very thin moms whose parasites (cria) can't be weaned yet do
> to the ice storm destroying the shelter I was going to move them too.
> They get free choice good 2nd cut orchard, but I wanted to add the
> alfalfa, just can't find it anywhere. I didn't want to use calf manna
> as the copper makes me nervous and I don't want to get stuck with 50#
> of beet pulp if they don't like it like the Lucerne ($18 down the
> drain...). Plus the stimulation of ruminating the alfalfa, as opposed
> to using peelets or beet, helps raise their body temp (it is 8
> degrees here).
>
> Cheers,
> Morgen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[AlpacaTalk] alpaca feed

If anyone wants to see graphic proof of my claims, please take a look
at my Alpaca Nutrition page.
http://www.whitelotusalpacas.com/nutrition.html
This the difference between a grain and by-product based feed and a
premium feed.

In addition to all of the nutritional information found in The Alpaca
Field Guide, here is a wonderful page with excellent information about
dietary needs of alpacas.
http://www.alpacaresearchfoundation.org/papers_reports/
Basics%20of%20Alpaca%20Nutrition.html

Be sure to read the section regarding grain, it's about 3/4 the way
down the page. Here's some of the text on grain:

Readily available carbohydrates like grain are an energy source. They
are not a protein or mineral source (Table 4), and are to be used only
in moderation for alpaca if the animal needs more energy. Times of
higher energy (and nutrient) requirements for the alpaca include late
gestation (last one third), early lactation, growth, in extremely cold
weather and at times for the geriatric animal. Grain is commonly used
as a carrier for a mineral supplement, and daily small amounts (quarter
of a 8 ounce cup) are not a problem. Now as I am discussing this, some
of you will say that the instructions for commercial pellets will
recommend up to 0.5 kg intake. Remember that commercial pellets are
only a portion grain and most pellets are high in dehydrated alfalfa –
a forage. When purchasing a pelleted supplement, one needs to evaluate
exactly what the pellets are made of and follow the recommended levels.
Thus, one needs to be careful when defining what a grain is. When I
indicate a "quarter of a 8 ounce cup" of grain, I am talking about
whole grains such as corn, oats, barley and other grains, not
commercial pellets.

The problem with overfeeding grain to alpaca primarily deals with the
microbe population. Remember that the microbes in Compartment I
digest/ferment the cellulose from forages. They also ferment the starch
in grains. Starch is much easier to ferment than cellulose, and if too
much grain is fed, then the microbes ferment it very fast producing
large proportion of lactic acid rather than the traditional fatty acids
we talked about earlier. The pH of lactic acid is very low and can
actually burn the inside of Compartment I. In ruminants this is called
acidosis, in camelids it is called "grain-overload." The problem with
grain overload in the camelids is that by the time you see any
symptoms, it is probably too late to save the animal even with drastic
surgical measures. For example...

------------------------------------

Message posts are the opinion of individuals posting and are not necessarily endorsed or approved by Yahoo! or the moderator of this group. The purpose of this discussion group is to ensure that all points of view can be aired. It is the responsbilty of all individuals who post to treat others with respect and civility.Yahoo! Groups Links

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: FEEd- A great Alpaca feed

That's funny Laurel,
We were feeding our old pellet as directed. We have no interest in
overfeeding, saying so and implying that was the cause of our problems
is insulting.

We lost our best female to a perforated ulcer and had those herd-wide
micron blowouts. After we stopped that feed, general health improved,
specific health problems resolved or improved, luster in fleece
returned, crimp returned, crias are now normal/correct birth weights
instead of fatties making delivery difficult.

How do you account for those results? The previous long-time owner of
Aussie Rockford also changed from that old pellet to our custom milled
one, and also noticed increased fleece crimp, luster, depth of color,
which she stated indicated an adundance of health. Due to the superior
feed.

Even before we started this pellet, our animals wouldn't touch Dynamite
pellets. And with the WABA pellet it was dicey. We haven't tried any
other feeds.

Heather

On Dec 22, 2008, at 7:19 AM, Shouvlins wrote:

> Hi Steve,
>
> No particular ingredient causes fiber blowout. It is just caused by
> eating too much in general whether it be too much good pasture, too
> much good hay, or too much supplement. I also personally feel that it
> can sometimes become a convenient excuse for the alpaca that is too
> coarse in micron.
>
> Laurel
>
> Tim & Laurel Shouvlin
> Bluebird Hills Farm
> 3617 Derr Rd.
> Springfield, Ohio 45503
> bluebirdhills@voyager.net
> www.bluebirdhills.com
> 937-206-3936

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: Alpaca feed

Thanks for the info, but as I said, I already know what's in our feed,
and since it's milled just up the road, I don't plan to change.

Heather

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alpacas

Free Alpacas Newsletter- How to Profit from Alpaca Farming

Monday, December 22, 2008

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