alpacas: Re: [AlpacaTalk] CA

You keep point the finger at 409 causing CA. What about those farms that do not use 409 in cleaning their water buckets, and still end up with a CA cria?

Since there is no small difference in the SIZE of a rat, as compared to an alpaca, what concentration do you suppose the alpaca would have to come into contact with, brobably she would have to drink it, straight from the bottle, to cause her to have a CA cria? I am pretty certain that she would show some other signs of poisoning LONG before a cria was born.

You signed off on four of your posts, nearly exactly the same way, denying there is a problem with studs and or dams, that carry CA. Interesting.

So, your intentions would be to continue to breed said studs and dams, regardless of them being CA producers.

Jim Guerin

Jimmini Farm

Yelm, WA

----- Original Message -----

From: Heather Zeleny

To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 1:38 PM

Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] CA

I'm sorry, I didn't answer your initial question. I assume all of this breeder's alpacas drink from buckets cleaned in similar fashion.

I have found an interesting page listing health issues with this product:

http://hpd.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=3007011

Acute Health Effects: From MSDS

Reports have associated blood and bone marrow damage with exposure to ethylene glycol monobutyl ether.

Chronic Health Effects: The manufacturer's Material Safety Data Sheet provides no information about health effects resulting from prolonged or frequent use of this product. (For discussion of potential long-term health effects, consult the individual chemical ingredients in this database.)

Ah, here's something interesting: (not sure if this link will work for everyone)

http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/f?./temp/~d02SpT:1

ETHYLENE GLYCOL MONO-N-BUTYL ETHER

Synonym: 2-butoxyethanol

Non-Human Toxicity Excerpts :

/LABORATORY ANIMALS: Developmental or Reproductive Toxicity/ Investigated the teratogenicity of five compounds. Each chemical was vaporized and administered to pregnant rats in one to three concentrations for 7 hr/day on gestation days 7 to 15, and dams were sacrificed on day 20. At concentrations which were apparently not maternally toxic, 2-methoxyethanol was highly embryotoxic, producing complete resorptions at 200 ppm; increased resorptions, reduced fetal weights and skeletal and cardiovascular defects occured at both 100 and 50 ppm. 2-Ethoxyethyl acetate at 600 ppm induced complete resorption of litters; 390 ppm reduced fetal weights and induced skeletal and cardiovascular defects, but only a single defect was observed at 130 ppm. 2-Butoxyethanol evidenced slight maternal toxicity at 200 ppm but produced no increase in congenital defects at that concentration. Neither 2-(2-ethoxyethoxy)ethanol (100 ppm) nor 2-methylaminoethanol (150 ppm) was maternally toxic or embryotoxic. Shorter alkyl chained glycol ethers produced greater embryotoxicity than those having longer chains, and the ester produced effects equivalent to the ether.

So, can we really be certain this particular dam has bad genes? And what about those 3 sires she was bred to? I think it's too early to say we ought to cull all of those sires.

JMO.

Heather

On Jun 25, 2009, at 1:02 PM, Bluebird Hills Farm wrote:

Heather,
I find it hard to believe that the only defect Formula 409 would cause is choanal atresia. Are there other alpacas drinking out of the same bucket? Have they all had CA crias? I think what is seen here is a dam that throws CA and that in her case it is a dominant defect. There have been llamas that have done similarly. Terrible bad and sad luck for the owners.

The best that could be done with this situation is necropsies of the cria although it is probably too late. Blood samples of all sires and the dam sent to Andy Merriwether.

Quick search (very quick) did not show any birth defects secondary to Formula 409, but it was very quick.

Laurel

The Shouvlins
Bluebird Hills Farm
Springfield, Ohio
937-206-3936
www.bluebirdhills.com
bluebirdhills@voyager.net

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