Re: [AlpacaTalk] BEW
Heather;
Let me first start by saying that none of the following is an anyway meant to slam or offend you. Just wanted to make that clear. Also, I hope you have time to read the following to your questions and/or statements
First... what colors were these crias? How many had full and how many had partial CA?
<<So I think we need to wait for studies to be completed before we start culling every animal that had CA in its lineage. Otherwise, I think we may be culling every alpaca in the US.>>
Well that is what seems to happen when you have very large farms who happen to be the culprit of this issue. In fact, many imported males had produced CA (as well as some of their offspring), and low and behold, no Formula 409 was being used in water buckets.... imagine... I would guess you would be looking at a very large number of alpacas (maybe only several thousand remaining) being taken from the programs due to genetics but that is the outcome of "sit, breed and wait to see the outcome but not take heed to warnings" instead of "sit and wait and take heed to warnings with the option to add the lines later SHOULD the CA NOT be genetic". Based on what I am seeing and what you have been explaining and what funny business other people see, good luck with that last part.
<<Also, I think it will be very hard to find out if an animal has any ancestors who have thrown CA, unless people start disclosing what they know. Meagan isn't saying, and apparently she has quite a database compiled. So what will it take? You can't sit around and point fingers if the information isn't available to everyone.>>
I have explained why the names can't be randomly thrown out into the open, as have others on this board. If it is such an ok thing to do, Heather, I invite you to toss out this said CA producing male and female you are so familiar with. After all, until it is all proven, what is the harm, right? If one wants to play the game, the other can too. It is very apparent you are not grasping this concept there is much to be LOST, and much to have the Industry in arms over. This is one of the reasons why, much like the LLAMA Industry which was brought down through the floor all the while dealing with the EXACT SAME issue, there is lots of hush hush money involved and a very large amount of threats being thrown about. You want to find out these names? I invite you to do so the way I have explained in my previous posts to this exact same question. The names are there, and if I say I PERSONALLY would or would not buy or breed that lines, don't you think that would give you an idea?? If someone knows of CA animals in a bloodline, and a grandson or granddaughter for instance, also throws it, would it not be a valid reason to think that the said animal could be a problem? You are right, not much can be pointed at when talking about JUST the males, but that is why databases should have both males and females. If one is a carrier and the other pulls, BOTH are responsible. Not many will fess up to their girls, but having the males is a very good starting point and far easier to acquire.
<<Will all of those owners be told that the sire has thrown a CA cria? How many has he produced? I doubt that it will ever be disclosed.>>
Exactly. Ya know, people have a funny way of reacting to this CA issue when their animal throws it (i.e. the Shoot, Shovel, and shut up method, not disclosing said issues male has produced, etc.) if it isn't something everyone is going to have a problem with. Why hide something that is ok? Why be so in a panic if it really isn't something that is going to be a problem? There is a line that will always stand true, no matter what the situation. "Actions will speak louder than words".
<<Why don't you tell me who are all of the CA producers in the country, and I'll be sure to avoid using any of those sires, or any of their relatives in my breeding program.>>
Why would you ask everyone else if that was a question you should have asked the farms you bought your animals from? The question is, what would you say if the lines in said list are already in your breeding program and what would you do after that revelation? The question isn't who are they and splashing it all over, but to ask someone who knows to go through a said herd and help you out. I definitely would not burn bridges by calling people out on the carpet if you won't spill information yourself.
<<We don't use it to clean out buckets, and we've never had a CA cria. What about those farms?>>
What??? The issue is not of farms who have not produced CA crias as I am sure there are lots of those, us being one of them. But I also know that none of the CA producers we have on file are in our lines and as far as I know none of the lines are even suspected to have caused problems. We did get rid of the one female (as in returned her to her original farm and lost thousands on her and made her crias into non-breeding fiber stock) who was confirmed to us to be of a CA producing grandsire who was very well known and having made millions on breeding fees, not to mention MANY CA babies as well with sons and daughters, grandsons and granddaughters also throwing CA crias.
<<So you see, this is not so easy to tell people "Your really should cull any animal that has had a relative with CA." Who knows where it came from, in the lineage?>>
It is culling the lines that have produced it, not culling the lines of their mother's father's aunt's uncle. If the problem line is in the background of an animal, pull it. Cut and dried, simple as that. An animal WITH CA never would have lived unless it is a partial. In that case, I would encourage someone to do something with that animal as this is a dead giveaway and if you are going to let it be known, be prepared to say the lines with. People are going to want to know.
Now that you have given us the info regarding the Formula 409 side effects and causes due to the solution, let me now ask you again what would possess someone to use this on their animals' supplies. Sure, you use it in your kitchen on many surfaces. Fair enough. Upon using this solution, has anyone eaten off of their counter? Maybe taken a drink out of their sink? Has anyone washed dishes with this stuff? Yes? No? I would go to say if you wouldn't do to yourself what you are doing with your animals in the lines of their health and cleaning practices, you probably should not be doing it! Let's go the other way. Has anyone ever experienced issues if they have used it? Has anyone had side effects? No? I would imagine it would stand the same for said animals. Like I said in the other post which was apparently too long to read, next thing you know, we are going to have people trying to convince others it is due to the well water in the buckets every day. Someone will come up with something... And again, no scientific proof in alpacas, I guess I just can't seem to believe what is being proposed here. And I would check that whole "dams not related" speculation just to be sure. I would imagine if he had more than 3 girls, surely more would have come up with CA crias if this is a common practice. Wouldn't one step back and wonder what they are doing wrong if they are having TONS of issues?? Goodness....
But like Laurel and Jim had asked, and still proves a very good question which has yet to be answered as far as I can tell. What about the CA crias who have not been born on farms who don't use Formula 409? What can be said for all of that? Right back to square one because I am sure there are tons of people who still aren't buying your Formula 409 statement when you have crias with CA who's mothers have never touched the stuff. I guess that is just another case of one link that doesn't make it so....
Maegan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Heather Zeleny" <alpacatalk@westwind
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogro
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 12:23:20 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] BEW
Heather, you wrote, "We later find out that
"this is the 3rd CA cria from this dam. So now what?"
You were shocked Heather, I am sure you were TICKED OFF in a big way. I would be, in fact I would be strongly considering a threat of legal action so that these folks never would buy a breeding for that female again. Ultimately, I wouldn't sue or involve attorneys, but I sure would try to give them a reason not to breed her, again.
That is a very sad situation, for a sire's reputation is now terribly tarnished. If it were I, I think I would have a very tough time using him, for if somewhere down the line one of his direct progeny, or one of his descendants threw a CA cria, it would all come crashing down and I would be one of the "no good rotten farms" that perpetuated the problem.
This is an absolutely terrible situation. A horrible loss for that farm that owns the stud, but you can never go wrong taking the highest road possible.
As for the contract disclosures, you are absolutely right that congenital does not mean genetic, but at least the issue is on the table for discussion so that everyone makes an informed decision about the breeding to take place.
So sorry about that stud....a truly lousy situation.
Laurel
The Shouvlins
Bluebird Hills Farm
Springfield, Ohio
937-206-3936
www.bluebirdhills.com
bluebirdhills@voyager.net
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posted by Chaddo at 5:55 PM
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