alpacas: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: Choanal Atresia

Heather;

Here are a couple things for you to look at, and even answer if you are up to it........ I invite you to do so...

I think you blew Jim's question WAY out of proportion. I didn't see this as an attack at all. He was MERELY asking you something. You took it to the other side of the earth. I, too, agree that this whole thing is beat to the ground. Especially when someone comes back with the comments trying to make blank and ridiculous childish points such as "So does that mean that because this animal of this color was born with this problem that has nothing to do with genetics, that therefore the color will always throw it?" Really?? Excuse me while I go find a sharp object to throw myself onto. It just shows how much some people could care less about others' programs, or what they sell others.

And let me ask you this… why would they raise hell if a CA producing male was to be thrown into the public spotlight IF IT ISN'T AN ISSUE?? In fact, I know of one farm and a certain breeder who would swear up and down that disclosure is something that should be done and something THEY would do, but yet they themselves have had a male throw CA. The funny part? They still tout they would remove their herdsire from the program, but it has not been done. What would you say to that?

Or, what if you had purchased a male who had produced CA at one point but you never knew? What happens if you had bred one of your girls to a male and had an amazing cria, but come to find out, the male you had bred your girl to was a known CA producer? What if you have CA producers in the bloodlines of your animals you own now? I think these general questions are valid. But as Jim had said, hostile or not, people read what they will the way they will and people all twisted up over something are going to take it personally. Like I say, if the shoe fits, wear it. I will go as far to say that Jim is correct in my view in saying YOU were the one who brought up being dishonest and your ethics. I am not sure of the story behind it all, but the way your protest these things, not to mention bring things up or put yourself into a something that was never said or insinuated, it would almost seem like there is something that is to be hidden or an underlying issue that one would not want brought to light. It does seem to be the case of protesting a bit too loudly. I could be wrong, but this is what I see, especially after your response to Jim. I thought his question was a very good question, and somehow it seems you turned it into a personal attack. I also would wonder if you would openly tell people names if you have had a male who produced CA (partial or full) or know of any since, in your opinion, it isn't a big deal. I would imagine farms would have large problems with their males being splashed all over the internet and boards as CA producers, but if you are willing to open yourself up to that and honestly think it not to be a big deal, I invite you to share. After all, as previously stated on this board, apparently refusal to identify those sires is not only annoying, but irresponsible.

You said, "If I had a sire who I knew threw a CA cria, no question would I remove him from my breeding program and geld him. But then, I am not making millions off breeding fees for my boys the way those large farms are... " Let me state that this question to proceed this statement is by NO MEANS meant to slam or insult you, I am merely asking you about your statement. Does the last part of that statement mean that if you were making millions off of a CA producer's breedings, you would keep him in your program? Also, does this statement conclude that by boys, you are saying that there is indeed more then on producer, whether consistent to the "T" or consistent, but not as often?

I have heard the instance in the dog world about the Formula 409 situation. This was also something brought well over 12 years ago to try to explain the come abouts of CA in alpacas. Here is my question. Why in the world, for the sake of anything, would you use formula 409 on anything for your animals? Are you kidding me? Why would you use such a potent anything on something your animals or livestock eat or drink out of, even live in? Secondly, until it is PROVEN that it is the Formula 409 that causes these issues in the Dachshunds, or alpacas for that matter, I am going to not only strongly disagree, but also wonder why someone would do something so ridiculous when it comes the their animals. People would much rather use this as "Well this is also the CA issue, and it just proves it is all environmental". Anything anyone can do to turn it into something less devastating, especially when talking such a large money industry. But what about those farms that don't use anything other than water and a scrubby as a natural way to clean their buckets and still have CA crias hit the ground? Is someone going to tell me the new possible cause of CA is the everyday water that is sitting in their buckets? ...... Right......

The OSU herd had "supposedly" never turned up another CA cria out of the herd they were working with. This is not what I had heard from people who actually had the inside stories and people behind that project but that all is what it is. You still have to look at this from the money aspect. Who in the world is going to prove that a majority of the bloodlines who were brought here and excessively used within the first 10 years and made farms tens of millions of dollars even up to today, is going to make a herd useless? Why in the world would you want to flush a majority of your alpaca population down the tubes because you had indeed found the problem? And yes, the ARF has claimed that they have started looking for the genetic info on CA in llamas and Alpacas, which was started last August. Now, let's see if they really follow through with this plan. Intentions are intentions, following through is something completely different. They had the opportunity to do this in the 90's but even then, there are too many farms against finding the genetic markers. We will be lucky if we see anything past the deadline of this year's research.

If you have read the full amount on the site I had submitted, you would have seen the information on how to acquire a CA genetic marker and who they have started this research through. Why not do it?? If all alpacas do indeed possess this gene, then at least we can prove it. If it is just strictly based on environment like so many people try to convince other people, then we can prove it. If CA is indeed genetic like several vets will swear up and down it is, then we can prove it. What is the harm in furthering our education as alpaca breeders by settling something that has been debated for years? Just get it said, done and over with and move on. I feel that would be the best bet for the industry. It might be the end of the Industry as we know it and bring it down through the floor, but at least we know what the cause of this CA is.

You are going to fight tooth and nail on the blue eyed thing until the end, I am sure, and obviously this is your prerogative. However, the point of showing you that article was to help you further your education and giving you a starting point to do your own research should you decide to do so. It was in no way supposed to be the ONLY statement that proves it. That was my point from the beginning. You say prove it, I show you what I have and it isn't good enough. If the information I am putting out is wrong, give me the valid information that proves it is in no way genetic. Of all the years we have been giving this "well then show me I am wrong" response, we have not once has a response to it. The whole fact that this does not happen and they leave the subject open just means, as someone had once said to me, that they don't have the information to back what they are saying. Is this correct? You say it is an "anecdotal coincidence". In my opinion, one's reason to call it a coincidence it strictly to side step the fact that it shows everything it has to, but somehow just happened to be the answer no one wants to hear. It just shows what denial people will sit in sometimes, but to each his own. You say you want to see the information I have been trying to get across to people for years. Some people have contacted me and thanked me for the info, and naturally, with many who have something to lose, all I basically get is a "Nah uh!! That isn't true and that doesn't mean anything to me!". Fair enough.

The ones who are going to be the most disrespected are the ones who say they will do one thing, but can turn around and do another. Nothing is worse than hypocrisy, especially in an Industry where very large amounts of money is spent and people depend on others to be open and honest about subjects such as genetics. People will have their opinions, but people also need to realize the extreme importance of helping those who want alpacas to be their retirement investment, or something other than putting their money in stock markets; money that is of great importance and to some degree, their livelihood. It is the job of breeders to be responsible and disclose all information, pretty or not. Me and my mom personally have done this from day one and have been loved or hated for it. But at the end of the day, we know we aren't candy coating or hiding things that are going to cost someone every penny they have ever put pride into earning. I thank those who have thanked me for not being afraid to bring this all to light, and hope that despite all the controversy, it helps others to make decisions that will further their herds and better their programs and just show that there are some who are willing to make a difference right now, and some who are willing to wait and see before they make a difference at all.

Maegan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Heather Zeleny" <alpacatalk@westwindalpacas.com>
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:46:16 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: [AlpacaTalk] Re: Choanal Atresia

This entire conversation is getting old.

A breeder, any breeder, with a working sire who has thrown numerous crias with CA might be upset and raise hell if it became public knowledge. However, if it were true, no one can be sued. Well, they can be sued, but they will not be likely to win.

Jim, I didn't like your accusation that _I_ would raise hell blah blah blah. And I still don't like that accusation. Because I would be the first to know if a sire of mine had produced a cria with CA. OR, if the dam were not mine, I would hope to be informed the same day, at least, by the dam owner.

Please stop your BS of my reading into your words what I choose to see. It really was there. You said "Heather, you would raise hell..." Not "Breeder X would raise hell." True or false?

Thankfully, I'm about done with this stupid conversation. You can play your word games all you wish.

The CA issue is far from concluded, and there is currently a study in the works. Hopefully we'll have an answer by the end of the year.

So until then, we can all stop hassling each other about hypothetical crap, and gossiping about who has what sire and what sire did what.

And until we see more than one BEW cria with CA, you can't say they are really related and part of the same syndrome.

We had a fawn cria with a heart malformation a few years ago. Does this mean all fawn crias have bad hearts?

This has turned into foolishness.

Heather

On Jun 23, 2009, at 9:30 PM, J Guerin wrote:

My Dear Heather, ( getting not just a bit soppy, isnt it? )

__._,_.___

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