[AlpacaTalk] All kidding aside...the real scoop on alpacasite and alpaca politics.
Hi everyone!
Sorry to say this isn't over....
Who was it that said "I'm not taken this any more?" Well, I'm not...so
here goes........
I decided to do some research and add it to what I really know about
alpacasite and the politics site and the movement of alpacasite over the
years. I can prove every word of what I'm about to say. If you doubt it,
contact Tim and Cindy Lavan or John Pinkowski or Rick Horn or check the
archives for much of what follows.
I just called Tim and Cindy Lavan to find out the origins of alpacasite and
the politics site because it was "before my time" on alpacasite. Tim said
that yes, he and Cindy started alpacasite in 1996. It was a bare bones
site with an unsophisticated software before Yahoo existed. It was
designed for both llama and alpaca breeders. After 3 -4 years of
bickering, it blew up and they didn't want to moderate it any more. (What a
surprise!) He said that they contacted John Pinkowski directly and asked
John to take over as moderator. John agreed. Tim said that he and Cindy
started alpacasite, not the politics site. He doesn't know who started the
politics site. (Neither do I for certain.)
John Pinkowski moderated it for years and finally had his fill of it after
being threatened with yet another lawsuit for "letting people post lies" on
alpacasite. (Yes...HE was threatened with lawsuits because of the posts of
other people. (And we wonder why Rick doesn't let things get carried
away???) I won't mention the names of the people who threatened to sue
John as it doesn't matter any more. I know this because John Pinkowski
called Jerry after he shut the site down. John asked if we "wanted" to
take over moderating it. John said that he had already spent too much time
with alpacasite and was tired of being threatened with lawsuits because of
what other people posted. He and his wife were, and are, physicians with
impossibly busy schedules. He felt we were honest and would do a fair job
moderating the site and be able to handle the bickering, etc. We were
flattered by his confidence in us BUTJerry immediately said, absolutely "no
thanks!!!" A big breeder taking over alpacasite??
Jerry didn't want and neither did I!! So, while we were flattered by John's
confidence, we declined. John turned it directly over to Rick Horn. We
never purchased it, bought it, sold it nor moderated it for even one
second. The rules Rick has now were probably a combination of his and
John's rules as they didn't seem to change much but you'd have to talk with
Rick to find that out or check the archives. John never mentioned
"selling" the site to us...he just wanted to be rid of it. It is more of a
liability than an asset to the moderator, you know. John said that he
received hate mail, people would try to drag him into fights, threatened
him because of what OTHERS posted and bombarded him with endless
complaints, e-mails and fights, etc. Being the moderator of alpacasite
wasn't an asset and it's not fun. I don't know but suspect the same kinds
of things happen for Rick on alpacasite but he can speak for himself.
So, my 2006 New Year's resolution was that I wasn't going to take these
personal attacks any more and it's easy to see Ana is now on the attack.
So, allow me to "fight back" and let's look at Ana's post and see how Ana
takes a little information and a tiny bit of truth and fabricates a great
story that sounds devious with conspiracies galore!
(Here's that bumpy ride Heather mentioned!)
Ana said: "Here's my understanding of Alpacasite ownership. Tim and Cindy
Lavan
started Alpacasite back in the mid 90's."
Analysis: Yes, Tim said that he and Cindy started alpacasite in 1996. This
is true although Tim said he didn't think a site could be "owned" by
anyone.
Ana said: "They sold the site to Libby and Jerry Forstner"
Analysis: Lie. Tim said that they not only didn't "sell" the site (he said
he didn't know if it was possible to sell a public site) but he turned it
over to
John Pinkowski (not us) to moderate it when they didn't want to deal with
it any more because of the bickering. He said it was an unsophisticated
software site before yahoo came along. I
forgot the name of the software Tim mentioned that they used because I
never heard of it and don't really understand computers...
buffs who understand computers better than I can ask Tim or Cindy directly.
See above paragraphs. The name of the software started with an "M" I think?
Regardless, moderation of the site moved directly from Lavans to John.
Ana said: "Libby and Jerry then got John Pinkowski to act as moderator of
alpacasite while they still owned it."
Analysis: Lie. We never "owned it" nor were we involved with the move of
moderators from Tim and Cindy Laven to John Pinkowski. Tim and Cindy never
talked to us about it. I don't believe we were members of "alpacasite"
when Tim and Cindy ran it. I don't believe we even knew Tim and Cindy Lavan
back them. We were new breeders in 1993-1994 and
in 1996 and 1997, I was volunteering to co-chair the 1996 conference, chair
the 1997 conference and we were in the beginning of the Closure debates. I
was swamped because in those days, there weren't paid staff to run
conferences. Volunteers ran it and I was overwhelmed with work. I don't
believe I was aware of alpaca site when the Lavan's moderated it nor was I
aware of the change in moderators. I believe John Pinkowski was moderator
by the time we joined alpacasite. Tim said that he contacted John directly
and John agreed to be the new moderator. He said that John moved
alpacasite to yahoo groups, not them. We had nothing whatsoever to do with
this move. Contact the Lavans or John Pinkowski if you doubt me.
Ana said: "When John quit because of threats of lawsuits between Eric
Hoffman and Ken Madl over what was being posted; Libby and Jerry got Rick
Horn to agree to be Moderator."
Analysis: Partial lie. John quit because of threats of lawsuits against
John HIMSELF and after years of people fighting with each other and arguing
with him in the middle.
A couple people threatened John with lawsuits because he was the moderator
and "let lies be posted." It was the last straw for John after years of
harrassment and
problems with alpacasite. He suddenly shut it down one day to everyone's
surprise. At some point after he shut it down, John Pinkowski surprised
us. He called Jerry and asked Jerry if we would take over as moderators of
alpacasite. See explanation above. As I said above, we said "no thanks."
We simply didn't want anything to do with moderating alpacasite as some
people were already sensitive re: big breeders controlling things...nor did
we want the headache...we were already busy volunteers with AOBA and ARI.
It was John's ultimate decision who became the new moderator. I recall
that he did ask Jerry's opinion regarding possible people and his opinion
of their ability to handle the attacks that come with being a moderator. He
was concerned that the moderator be able to take the grief that was sure to
come to the moderator. I wasn't privy to the details of the move, nor did
I speak directly to John Pinkowski, nor did I speak to Rick Horn or anyone
else John was contemplating but Jerry might have done so to help out. But
I can't imagine that John asked Rick to pay for the headache of running
alpacasite. He sure didn't ask us for money nor can I figure out how
anyone could sell something that belongs to Yahoo nor why anyone would pay
for alpacasite in the first place. Let's get "real"! I believe Rick Horn
was one of several possible moderators being considered for approach. I do
not know why John ultimately chose Rick Horn but that's between them... but
he did and that's history. Again, we only know this part of the story
regarding alpacasite because John asked us if we had an interest in
becoming moderators and told us what happened. We said no thanks, and the
rest is history.
Ana: "According to Libby and Jerry as of April 2004 they were still the
owners of both Alpacasite and Alpacapolitics.
Analysis: Absolute Lie. Amazing. I never cease to be amazed at Ana's
ability to spin a tale, twisting facts and absolutely making stuff up (Mom
called it lying) as if it's true because she WANTS it to be true! We never
owned alpacasite nor the politics site. It belongs to yahoo, I suspect,
but I'm not smart enough to understand yahoo and how it works. We never
even moderated it for one tiny, little, teeny weeny second. Please notice
that Ana has now added ownership of the politics site to her fantasy of
intrique!
Ana said: " I don't know if they still own it today but they did in 2004. I
was told the above by Libby and Jerry themselves."
Analysis: This is another bold lie. We never owned alpacasite..
this conversation with her...never told her any such thing. Again, I don't
think you can own a yahoo group to my knowledge but I'll leave that to the
computer experts to explain for sure one way or the other. Like I said, we
never even moderated it or one second. For us it was a "hot potato."
After we refused to moderate it, John turned it directly over to Rick Horn.
I don't recall if the politics site existed at that time or not. Someone
else can research that. I was not privy to conversations between Rick Horn
and John Pinkowski so I can't help provide information on those
conversations.
Ana said: "I and others have tried to find out exactly who does own the
sites these days to no avail. Yahoo groups won't say a word. Their lips are
sealed..."
Analysis: I and others? Wow! Yahoo groups won't say a word? Those rats
won't tell Ana about this? Their lips are sealed? Gosh, Ana says this like
there is a big secret with yahoo and us in a conspiracy that is so vile an
arrangement that even yahoo won't disclose it... to protect who? Us?
Them? Does anyone really think that yahoo cares one bit about AOBA, me or
Ana? Does anyone really believe yahoo cares who moderates yahoo sites??
Yeah, right! Imagine Ana deciding that knowing who "owns" alpacasite and
the politics site is of the upmost importance to our industry and spending
her time and energy working on creating and then "finding the proof for"
her own fabricated conspiracy theory!? Gosh, please Ana, love your kids,
hug them, spend time with them! The person who moderates alpacasite is Rick
Horn. We turned down the "honor" many, many years ago! Get over it.
Ana said: "I think your perspectives as a moderator are exactly what's
needed in the industry… Keep up the great work!"
Analysis: This means to me: "Keep up the attacks...I love it and I'm with
ya and you make my job easier!"
So, contact Tim and Cindy Lavan and contact John Pinkowski and Rick Horn if
you doubt any of what I've written. Check the archives. What I can't tell
you because I don't know is who actually started alpaca politics (John or
Rick?). Nor do I care, actually. As I said, someone else is free to
research that.
What concerns me is that Ana takes the smallest piece of what is true (John
asked us to moderate alpacasite and we said "no thanks") and she fabricates
a story of secrecy and intrique and blatant LIES and the sad part is, I
think after awhile she believes her own lies and sadly, so do a few others
who simply do not know what to believe. She makes it sound like there are
conspiracies everywhere and it scares and concerns some people who don't
understand what is going on. The sad part is she also involves others in
her stories of intrique instead of just attacking Jerry and me. She really
should take up writing novels...she spins great yarns. She'd probably make
a fortune! The problem is that these stories HURT people and HURT our
industry. I fear that if I didn't research her story and post the truth
here in response which is something I don't want to do, her "stories"
become the truth. Heather has already made it clear that she's ready to
believe anything whether or not there is proof. It takes so much energy
and is such a waste of time!!
So, this IS the entire scoop for those of you who care enough to hear the
facts. Feel free to research it yourself, if you care (which I doubt).
I'm going to add this paragraph because of the long history and potential
damage to our industry with this "garbage"...
to believe Ana's stories about people. I watched as she attacked AOBA
Boards, the show committee, the Hoberts, volunteers and many others. She
sent me pages upon pages of "terrible deeds" the Hoberts supposedly did. By
then, I was no longer believing her accusations and stories. Neither
evidently was that particular Board that finally said "enough." She tells
such a good story with supposedly "truths" and "facts" that it seemed to me
that they had to be true. It wasn't until the last few Boards refusing to
do her biding when I began to realize that they were almost total
fabrications, the "facts" didn't exist (with sometimes enough truth to make
you wonder if you didn't check it out) and just like this example, good
people got hurt and then many of them were sued by Ana!!! The amazing part
of this is that if we had taken over and run alpacasite as moderators, what
would it have mattered other than people who get upset about big breeder!
Everyone would have known John turned it over to us if he had just like
they know John turned it over to Rick Horn. Everyone would have been able
to decide whether to participate or not.
I absolutely HATE doing this. But...if someone is going to accuse me or
someone I loved of wrongdoing, I am going to fight back. That was my
decision a couple years ago, whatever the consequences for me. It isn't
good for this industry to believe the garbage being spread as truths. You
can decide for yourself Ana's motives and how she "reports her truth." You
can decide if you believe her when she posts her conspiracy theories...but
hopefully you can also understand why I seldom read or respond to her
e-mails and why I had to post this.
So Ana, if this is a new time of renewed attacks, bring it on! I'm not
afraid of you. All I have to do is tell the truth.
Sadly,
Libby
Libby Forstner
Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net.
Earn your degree in as few as 2 years - Advance your career with an AS, BS, MS degree - College-Finder.net.
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posted by Chaddo at 9:32 AM
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