Re: [AlpacaTalk] Re: Help, I need advice on replacing my girls after the dog attack.
Hi Michael;
Glad to see your post. :-) I would like to now make some points and comments based on your responses.
In response to breeding all females to one male:
1) While it might have been an inexpensive way to cover their females, it is also a very good way to not only bottle neck the genetics on your own farm, but to bottle neck genetics in general. What happens when, like many farms have experienced but rarely speak of, a male consistently throws a congenital defect such as Choanal Atresia? What do you do with all of those babies that are progeny of a trouble male, especially when due to one's decision to mass breed their girls across the board, the babies are rendered useless and of no value? 2) Very high end male in terms of looks and what he throws? Or very high end male genetically according to people who may not know certain bloodlines and what these bloodlines are known for throwing? I will say this much about certain bloodlines, especially when farms have lost tons of money on them due to the genetic flaws they carry. The animal may be the nicest thing anyone has ever seen, but if your male or female comes from a line which has produced congenitally defected babies, especially on a regular basis, they aren't worth a penny and neither are the lines which stem from them. These lines pose such a threat in fact, that many smaller farms have been threatened by the larger ones if they were to ever open their mouth about names or who owns them. If the lines aren't such an issue, why such a hostile reaction towards those who know? I don't know how many times we have heard this, and how many times there have been x-rays present to prove the issue valid, but it is enough to scare the larger farms into making people keep their mouth shut. Moreover, according to a well known animal law attorney, it is actually animal abuse and negligence to breed an animal that has knowingly and/or consistently produced a deadly defect such as Choanal Atresia, wrye face, and the like. 3) If this male's genetics are so superior and highly sought after, why would they have sold all the females they has bred him to? Would they not want to have the "prized cria" on their ground and at their disposal when it comes to sales and breeding? Wouldn't the fact that they have done this do the buying farm a disservice, especially if the buying farm in small and doesn't have much in the line of other bloodlines to breed them to? Wouldn't 4 related crias, plus whatever other animals may also be related in the package actually hurt a small farm due to such a limited breeding ability? One would think that if you don't have a large palette to work with, you certainly would not put yourself into a position of a fully related herd in "x" amount of years.
While base lining is used to access the ability of one male, you are also doing yourself a great deal of harm. I could see if you were dealing with a brand new line to the industry and have no established data as to what he may throw, what his weak and strong points are, etc. But to breed a male who is a son of a male who is a son of a male who is all over and you know the attributes that are or are not dominant in that line, it is ridiculous to base line a mass amount of girls. To breed a new male to 5-10 different females to confirm, sure. But to mass produce babies out of one male, again, is causing huge issues in your genetic (non) diversity because at the end of the day, all your alpacas are closer to being related when breeding one male to several hundred females over the course of his lifetime especially if it is a line already running rampant. You have perfect examples of this with lines such as Caligula, Hemingway being one of your biggest. Then people turn around and breed those lines to one another again. This not only anchors the genetic issues this line may already carry, but it takes alpacas to a new level of dealing with what you see in cattle, equine, or even your dogs. The more you in and line breed, the more your genetics are turned upside down, inside out and sideways. You end up with useless animals when it comes to genetics and conformation and 9 times out of 10, these animals will carry the worst reproductive and health issues you can think of. Why in the world would you want to turn the alpacas into just another tale of human selection that turned the animals into mush? I understand they are another type of livestock, but don't consciously put them into the same basket when it comes to the outcome due to humans wanting to make a buck.
I always liked the phrase "too much of a "good" thing", and I put "good" because with some of those lines out there, that is definitely up for debate. However, if you have exhausted all genetic options, where do you go? What do you do? Do you turn around and breed them to a relative to try to cement a certain trait? Surely you can't just stop breeding them, there is no money in that. Anyone who knows livestock knows that you cannot safely turn around and breed an animal to a relative without there being genetic repercussions. A perfect example: Peruvians, and ACTUAL Peruvians from your Peruvian herds. Choanal Atresia seems to be more consistent in this origin than any other. Why? They were in and line bred excessively to produce your white fiber for mass production. So, in order to support a market, they genetically flaw an origin. They may be impressive looking animals, and I give props to the maker of those animals for the look they carry and the consistency they hold when it comes to offspring. But I will not jeopardize my herd if I know an animal carries a genetically flawed animal in its background or is one themselves, and that I can go to another line to better my herd in a more sound manner. I am not saying all Peruvians are bad. There are some very impressive Peruvians that I wouldn't mind getting my hands and I know I could put into my herd without worrying about a cria dying in a field because it's genetics are useless. So, when your Peruvian breeding programs are exhausted, what do you do?
Being that I lived in OH and kept track of many of the alpacas farms while there, not to mention had shown at many shows such as Nationals, Futurity, Buckeye, etc, I know what OH's herds consist of. While talking to a fellow alpaca friend of mine today, it was brought up that if these large farms were to tout your Chileans, or Bolivians, they would take place of your Peruvian counterpart. I am confused as to how people can say "I don't mind the different origins and have nothing against them, but wouldn't take anything other than a Peruvian". Ok. So let me ask this. What is it about the Peruvian that is so appealing? Does the Peruvian look different? Does it hold any superiority over any of the other origins? If not, why lean towards the Peruvians? What makes them so much more marketable? Everyone is right, it is hype. But, hype is a wave of the times. Say 2 years from now, people have exhausted your Peruvian idea and fall towards the Chileans or your Bolivians. Would that not put those who breed strictly Peruvians into a bind since the demand would fall, and there would no longer be a money hunger for your Peruvian lines? What happens if Peruvians become so related to one another that you can't use them and have to out breed to Chileans or Bolivians? People say there isn't a difference. If that is the case, why would you prefer the Peruvians, the marketing hype aside? If it were to be posed to you that the Peruvians weren't going to make you much money at all, would you still buy them?? With this all being said, would it not be a very wise choice for a farm to invest in all three versus just the one so you can be more flexible for changes in demand?
As for the exportation and whether or not they are the same or different, according to some very recognized and highly regarded vets, the Peruvians and Bolivians are very closely genotypically mapped. It was once said that this was the reason why blue eyes were more prominent in your Bolivians, second in Peruvians and congenital defects such as CA more prominent in your Peruvians, Bolivians being your second due to the close mapping and breeding that has occurred over lines. They had advised that if you wanted to out breed, you do so to your Chileans because they were genotypically mapped far different and posed more of a new blood. I would think this would show there to be a difference, and while you may have had Peruvians slipping in with your Chilean batches and so on, there is still a difference to be had in the lines and programs, and certainly your genetics. Also, there is a large difference between the Port of Export and Country of Origin, especially since the original alpacas were very easy to tell apart based on their country of origin based on their stature, the fleece, and so on. Even the different areas of Peru had animals that looked very different from one another.
I could be mistaken, but if you were talk to said Chilean breeder, he is proud of his animals, but will still firmly stand on the fact they are Chilean, not american, when it comes to his huacayas and the suris he has brought in as well, though now he is doing something a bit different with his suris. In fact, I was the handler of one of his extremely impressive females during a show one year. She was brought up in front of the judge as being Champion white in order that he might explain his reasoning behind placing her. The judge is VERY well known and to some, very highly regarded. This judge went on to talk about how the breeding program of the Accoyo lines were proving to be very beneficial to the American breeding programs of the alpacas, all while talking about a full Chilean female. While it stood as a good joke for quite some time, I think it also bothered him being that he and his family had worked so hard to prove that you didn't have to have a Peruvian to make an alpaca that could beat out the top Peruvians in the show ring that year. I don't think I had ever seen someone so proud of what he has accomplished with his program especially after he was told his Chileans would never see good outcomes in a show ring. And I know how he feels. One of our boys here on our farm is constantly inquired by people who come to the farm and see him in a field as a Rincon Cloud son. While this is nice to hear, it is even nicer to be able to say he is a full Chilean and happens to be out of lines that some people have never seen which just makes it all that much sweeter.
I wonder where you got the story that the dark Chileans were used as dinner? I had never heard of this. In fact, as far as I knew, it was the colored Peruvians that were used as dinner because their colored fiber didn't have nearly the demand nor could it be dyed which posed a problem for the Peruvian people when selling fleece. The Chileans alpacas in their country were only slaughtered if rendered no longer breeding or not of breeding quality. There was even a Bolivian farm who would slaughter off the parentage of a cria who came up with blue eyes or any other congenital issues as this was not desired nor something that was to be passed on. Every country used their animal for meat; just each had a different reasoning or criteria when it came to the herds.
Also, since I had just read it as I was finishing this email, it is funny you say that Stakowski is adamant about the Peruvians and them being the only Alpaca to possess. I am not sure if you know the story on him but Stakowski was very much known for his Chileans when he had first brought them in and used them in his program. They were all the rave. In fact, it was his Silver Chileans that people would have killed to get there hands on. Everyone wanted the Chileans Stakowski had either brought to his farm, or produced out of his herd. When I had talked to him a few years ago, he had said he was still staying with most of his Chileans he had left, but he had far more Peruvians that he was breeding. Another farm is Snowmass Alpacas. Back in the mid to late 90's, Julie Skinner was actually very well known for her Bolivian breeding herd. She had some of the nicest and most exquisite Bolivians to be seen in the U.S. They later decided to phase off the Bolivians and move towards the Peruvians after buying into several different Peruvian sires.
I am seeing though that now a days, many people would rather go with the flow to make the money than to hold some individuality and provide an avenue that I am sure will prove to be just as profitable with the Chileans or Bolivians.
I agree though, to each his own. We own bits and fulls of all three. And I would agree that I have seen the good, the bad, and the ugly out of all of the origins many times over. Everyone has their purposes and goals of their programs and everyone will either reach them, or they won't.
Good luck to each farm and the goals they have set for their herds.
Kindest regards,
Maegan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael A. Morack" <mam2@wi.rr.com>
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogro
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 3:56:14 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: [AlpacaTalk] Re: Help, I need advice on replacing my girls after the dog attack.
Hello Meagan...I would like to address a couple of your comments for a point of discussion that may be a good exercise for many Alpacatalkers and address your points only as they were the first stated and in no way seek to represent this as a personal attack on your views just perhaps professional disagreement we can banter back and forth and I for one will most likely learn something in the process.
OK here goes...:)
First, why breed all females to one male? Specifically in this case it was twofold, they owned the animal and it was an inexpensive way to breed all their females, second, it is a very high end male and lightens and improves everything he is bred to, third, he passed away this last year and in an attempt to take full advantage of his genetics prior to passing this may account for multiple breedings.
Now that was my guess knowing a little and very little about the farm and their practices. There is an exceptional reason however, to breed a single male across a group of females. It is called Base Lining. You select a male that represents consistent improvement to your herd as a whole and set those characteristics across the herd. You then look at that level of cria, access what improvement is most needed and breed them to one male for the improvement. This produces a line of Alpaca with very consistent characteristics and moves improvement of a herd ahead quite rapidly.
This does impede a single animal from improving as quickly as selection specifically for that animal, but the forward moving results can get quite dicey from an individual and consistency and variation can get quite extreme.
Does this limit breeding? Sure. Related is related, but then there are some great males out there with great characteristics that are willing and able to improve a line of animals.
Now onto my favorite topic - port of export pedigrees, ie., Peruvian, Bolivian, and Chilean. Boy do we agree here Meagan only I might be a might stronger in my agreement.
Having just returned from the Nationals in Cleveland,OH also referred to as "Little Peru" this sentiment was never stronger. The fact is that other than a few farms such as Accoyo, Allianza, and Mucasano, most animals were fairly consistent and the only thing setting these apart was controlled selection and breeding. One story from the first importer lost the Peru export visa a week prior to export. He loaded the animals in a semi and drove them to Chile where he exported them. Now he asks everyone the question, "are they Peruvian or Chilean?"
That is the difference other than a group of individuals decided to use this as a Market Segmentation to hold their animals above others in perception so that they could out compete others in sales. Just great marketing.
We believe that each animal be judged on its merits, not lineage to "Port of Export". Merits being Phenotype and Pedigree when no other evaluation is available, Progeny when it is, and perhaps EPD or other statistics that help access that animal. Patagonia is a great example of an individual who has made selection and breeding lines of animals a top selection and is producing some great AMERICAN ALPACAS.
We have seen this Peruvian bias to an extreme where an animal meets the exact requirements a breed is seeking but dismisses the animal because they are not Peruvian. Yikes! Each to their own, but to pass on what you need just because Port of Export was not correct - show me the qualitative breeding selection in that?
Give me American anytime! We keep this kind of selection criteria up, namely by Port of Export, and we will find ourselves wishing we were Australian or New Zealand. I was told the reason Chilean is substandard was they had many dark animals and were used primarily for dinner. Interesting that those "dinner" Alpacas are now well sought after because of their fleece - especially blacks! Whites have been in demand by commercial markets and therefore have seen the greatest improvements. Have you seen whats happening to blacks since the interest and price for their fleece has come under demand?
Well that should be more than enough ammunition for anyone disagreeing to post a contrary opinion and I for one would enjoy hearing other points of view, either for or against some of my positions, because that is how we all learn and grow.
Happy Alpacas, Michael
Michael and Margery A. Morack
Greenbriar Farm
Waukesha, WI
--- In AlpacaTalk@yahoogro
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> I would have to agree that I am not sure why all the girls were bred to the same sire. This really can tank a program if you don't have a large number of animals due to the fact that now your crias would all be half related. While this may have been a good selling point in their eyes, I really think it is something that might actually hurt.
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> I have to STRONGLY but respectfully disagree here. While it may seem like I am biased due to the fact that we breed a large portion of Chileans, we also have very nice and highly sought-after Peruvians. DO NOT let the fact that they are Chilean keep you from buying them unless there are underlying genetic issues. Even then, that has nothing to do with the fact they are Chilean, just strictly some bloodline that may have produced a genetic and nasty flaw. I lived in OH and bounce back and forth quite often as it is my second state of "residence". I was going to move my animals out there upon first arriving there Nov but money prevented this from happening. I did market my boys out in the area though; � ALL but 3 are full Chilean, 2 are full Bolivian and one is half Peruvian, half Chilean. We had farms in IN, MI, PA, and even in OH very strongly ask that our males be shipped to OH so they could have their girls brought down to a meeting farm and have them bred. What made it even crazier was they wanted 3 of my full Chilean boys. After talking to several farms about the "marketing issue" that supposedly foots the Chileans, a vast majority of them said it didn't matter what they had in their background as far as country of origin, it was what they presented themselves, and what they throw. Hence Alpacas de la Patagonia with all of his Chileans and the mass success he has had across the US with many, many farms. Some of those farms had kept their farms fully Peruvian up until they bought a line or two out of that farm.
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> Also, what many people have to realize is that many of the bloodlines� that back this mass marketing and selling "appeal" are very largely integrated into many bloodlines and will end up bottle-necking our genetics to a severe degree not to mention may not be the best bloodlines� due to� producing congenital defects. I don't know about you, but if I am going to want to breed alpacas for a good� amount of time to come, I don't want to be inbreeding and line breeding my animals to the point of turning them into cattle along the lines of birthing issues and even more genetic problems than what already stands with Choanal Atresia and blue eyes. I think if anyone is going to� have to restart a program, they might want to start� with something that have room to work with, not something� they have to start looking across country to try to find breedings and different lines for.
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> Wendy, if you want to buy good animals, go with your gut feeling. People can give you their opinion, but as you can see, many are going to have to base it on what they are looking as far as how "appealing" they might be based on Peruvian or Accoyo lines. Do not let anything be the deciding factor other than what you want to see in your program and what is going to throw best for you. Marketing and "appeal" is a good point but I think you will find that with many farms, if you have impressive animals and a good ribbon or two, you will do just fine.
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> Warmest Regards,
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> Maegan Blessing
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> Business Manager
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> Cedar Grove Alpacas, LLC
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> www.alpacanation.
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> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bluebird Hills Farm" <bluebirdhills@
> To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogro
> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 6:14:13 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
> Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Help, I need advice on replacing my girls after the dog attack.
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> Wendy, at first blush, I am leaning toward Twin Peaks. You appear to be getting more for your money with them. I must� say that I am not sure why all the alpacas have been bred to the same sires. In regards to Twin Peaks, their sire has a more well known pedigree, so that may prove to be an advantage, both in outcome and in marketing.
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> It is close to impossible to assess the conformation from the pictures and certainly not possible to ascertain what their fiber is like, but at least there are some micron counts listed on the herdsire Bella (Twin Peaks).�
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> The other issue is the Chilean portion of their pedigrees. Unfortunately, here in the east everyone wants full Peruvian, so marketing in the future might be less of a problem with the Twin Peaks than with the Bennington, just because they have more Peruvian in them. I don't agree with the prejudice, but from a marketing perspective, you need to know that it exists.
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> So I guess I would go with the Twin Peaks package. There are no glaring issues with either group, just think that the fiber and pedigrees are stronger with the Twin Peaks group. Hope this is helpful.
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> Laurel
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> The Shouvlins
> Bluebird Hills Farm
> Springfield, Ohio
> 937-206-3936
> www.bluebirdhills.
> bluebirdhills@
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> > Thank you for your help.? The packages are on alpacanation.
> > Twin Peaks Alpacas for $6000.00 and one is at Bennington Alpacas for
> > $7000.00. Twin peaks is Godfathers Pachino, Faik's Grace, Faiks Moselle,
> > Viac Dark Miss and Viac Samantha.? Bennington Alpacas is Eulalie, Lavinia,
> > Lavinias black female cria, and Diamond. Please let me know your opinion.
> > I need to figure this out by Friday. Thanks again for your help.
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> > ?
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> > Wendy
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posted by Chaddo at 12:07 AM
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