alpacas: RE: [AlpacaTalk] Re: Help, I need advice on replacing my girls after the dog attack.

I hate to see “me too” posts, but I must write to say I agree whole-heartedly with everything you said and wish more people took the time to understand the principles of breeding (e.g. baselining) and thought harder about the received wisdom of “Peruvian” animals being better than others. We have all seen some great Chilean and Bolivians (think Acero Marka’s Rockamundo – reputedly the finest fiber on any animal imported), and some absolutely appalling Peruvians. Unfortunately, too many people follow the herd (no pun intended) and don’t bother to question what they hear.

A real test, for those who are interested in fiber quality, not halter show ribbons, is to look at the results from fleece shows, where the animal is not known and neither is the farm showing it – quite an eye-opener when you see where the better fleeces come from!

Chris

Chris Lewis | Alpaca Advantage| Virginia | USA
Telephone: (540) 635-5308 | Fax: (540) 635-7193
www.AlpacaAdvantage.com
www.Alpaca-Business-Plan.com

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From: Michael A. Morack [mailto:mam2@wi.rr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 6:56 PM
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AlpacaTalk] Re: Help, I need advice on replacing my girls after the dog attack.

Hello Meagan...I would like to address a couple of your comments for a point of discussion that may be a good exercise for many Alpacatalkers and address your points only as they were the first stated and in no way seek to represent this as a personal attack on your views just perhaps professional disagreement we can banter back and forth and I for one will most likely learn something in the process.

OK here goes...:)
First, why breed all females to one male? Specifically in this case it was twofold, they owned the animal and it was an inexpensive way to breed all their females, second, it is a very high end male and lightens and improves everything he is bred to, third, he passed away this last year and in an attempt to take full advantage of his genetics prior to passing this may account for multiple breedings.

Now that was my guess knowing a little and very little about the farm and their practices. There is an exceptional reason however, to breed a single male across a group of females. It is called Base Lining. You select a male that represents consistent improvement to your herd as a whole and set those characteristics across the herd. You then look at that level of cria, access what improvement is most needed and breed them to one male for the improvement. This produces a line of Alpaca with very consistent characteristics and moves improvement of a herd ahead quite rapidly.

This does impede a single animal from improving as quickly as selection specifically for that animal, but the forward moving results can get quite dicey from an individual and consistency and variation can get quite extreme.

Does this limit breeding? Sure. Related is related, but then there are some great males out there with great characteristics that are willing and able to improve a line of animals.

Now onto my favorite topic - port of export pedigrees, ie., Peruvian, Bolivian, and Chilean. Boy do we agree here Meagan only I might be a might stronger in my agreement.

Having just returned from the Nationals in Cleveland,OH also referred to as "Little Peru" this sentiment was never stronger. The fact is that other than a few farms such as Accoyo, Allianza, and Mucasano, most animals were fairly consistent and the only thing setting these apart was controlled selection and breeding. One story from the first importer lost the Peru export visa a week prior to export. He loaded the animals in a semi and drove them to Chile where he exported them. Now he asks everyone the question, "are they Peruvian or Chilean?"

That is the difference other than a group of individuals decided to use this as a Market Segmentation to hold their animals above others in perception so that they could out compete others in sales. Just great marketing.

We believe that each animal be judged on its merits, not lineage to "Port of Export". Merits being Phenotype and Pedigree when no other evaluation is available, Progeny when it is, and perhaps EPD or other statistics that help access that animal. Patagonia is a great example of an individual who has made selection and breeding lines of animals a top selection and is producing some great AMERICAN ALPACAS.

We have seen this Peruvian bias to an extreme where an animal meets the exact requirements a breed is seeking but dismisses the animal because they are not Peruvian. Yikes! Each to their own, but to pass on what you need just because Port of Export was not correct - show me the qualitative breeding selection in that?

Give me American anytime! We keep this kind of selection criteria up, namely by Port of Export, and we will find ourselves wishing we were Australian or New Zealand. I was told the reason Chilean is substandard was they had many dark animals and were used primarily for dinner. Interesting that those "dinner" Alpacas are now well sought after because of their fleece - especially blacks! Whites have been in demand by commercial markets and therefore have seen the greatest improvements. Have you seen whats happening to blacks since the interest and price for their fleece has come under demand?

Well that should be more than enough ammunition for anyone disagreeing to post a contrary opinion and I for one would enjoy hearing other points of view, either for or against some of my positions, because that is how we all learn and grow.

Happy Alpacas, Michael

Michael and Margery A. Morack
Greenbriar Farm
Waukesha, WI
--- In AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com, cedargrovealpacas@... wrote:
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> I would have to agree that I am not sure why all the girls were bred to the same sire. This really can tank a program if you don't have a large number of animals due to the fact that now your crias would all be half related. While this may have been a good selling point in their eyes, I really think it is something that might actually hurt.
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> I have to STRONGLY but respectfully disagree here. While it may seem like I am biased due to the fact that we breed a large portion of Chileans, we also have very nice and highly sought-after Peruvians. DO NOT let the fact that they are Chilean keep you from buying them unless there are underlying genetic issues. Even then, that has nothing to do with the fact they are Chilean, just strictly some bloodline that may have produced a genetic and nasty flaw. I lived in OH and bounce back and forth quite often as it is my second state of "residence". I was going to move my animals out there upon first arriving there Nov but money prevented this from happening. I did market my boys out in the area though; ï¿½ ALL but 3 are full Chilean, 2 are full Bolivian and one is half Peruvian, half Chilean. We had farms in IN, MI, PA, and even in OH very strongly ask that our males be shipped to OH so they could have their girls brought down to a meeting farm and have them bred. What made it even crazier was they wanted 3 of my full Chilean boys. After talking to several farms about the "marketing issue" that supposedly foots the Chileans, a vast majority of them said it didn't matter what they had in their background as far as country of origin, it was what they presented themselves, and what they throw. Hence Alpacas de la Patagonia with all of his Chileans and the mass success he has had across the US with many, many farms. Some of those farms had kept their farms fully Peruvian up until they bought a line or two out of that farm.
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> Also, what many people have to realize is that many of the bloodlinesï¿½ that back this mass marketing and selling "appeal" are very largely integrated into many bloodlines and will end up bottle-necking our genetics to a severe degree not to mention may not be the best bloodlinesï¿½ due toï¿½ producing congenital defects. I don't know about you, but if I am going to want to breed alpacas for a goodï¿½ amount of time to come, I don't want to be inbreeding and line breeding my animals to the point of turning them into cattle along the lines of birthing issues and even more genetic problems than what already stands with Choanal Atresia and blue eyes. I think if anyone is going toï¿½ have to restart a program, they might want to startï¿½ with something that have room to work with, not somethingï¿½ they have to start looking across country to try to find breedings and different lines for.
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> Wendy, if you want to buy good animals, go with your gut feeling. People can give you their opinion, but as you can see, many are going to have to base it on what they are looking as far as how "appealing" they might be based on Peruvian or Accoyo lines. Do not let anything be the deciding factor other than what you want to see in your program and what is going to throw best for you. Marketing and "appeal" is a good point but I think you will find that with many farms, if you have impressive animals and a good ribbon or two, you will do just fine.
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> Warmest Regards,
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> Maegan Blessing
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> Business Manager
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> Cedar Grove Alpacas, LLC
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> www.alpacanation.com/cedargrovealpacas.asp
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> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bluebird Hills Farm" <bluebirdhills@...>
> To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 6:14:13 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
> Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Help, I need advice on replacing my girls after the dog attack.
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> Wendy, at first blush, I am leaning toward Twin Peaks. You appear to be getting more for your money with them. I mustï¿½ say that I am not sure why all the alpacas have been bred to the same sires. In regards to Twin Peaks, their sire has a more well known pedigree, so that may prove to be an advantage, both in outcome and in marketing.
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> It is close to impossible to assess the conformation from the pictures and certainly not possible to ascertain what their fiber is like, but at least there are some micron counts listed on the herdsire Bella (Twin Peaks).ï¿½
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> The other issue is the Chilean portion of their pedigrees. Unfortunately, here in the east everyone wants full Peruvian, so marketing in the future might be less of a problem with the Twin Peaks than with the Bennington, just because they have more Peruvian in them. I don't agree with the prejudice, but from a marketing perspective, you need to know that it exists.
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> So I guess I would go with the Twin Peaks package. There are no glaring issues with either group, just think that the fiber and pedigrees are stronger with the Twin Peaks group. Hope this is helpful.
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> Laurel
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> The Shouvlins
> Bluebird Hills Farm
> Springfield, Ohio
> 937-206-3936
> www.bluebirdhills.com
> bluebirdhills@...
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> > Thank you for your help.? The packages are on alpacanation.com. One is at
> > Twin Peaks Alpacas for $6000.00 and one is at Bennington Alpacas for
> > $7000.00. Twin peaks is Godfathers Pachino, Faik's Grace, Faiks Moselle,
> > Viac Dark Miss and Viac Samantha.? Bennington Alpacas is Eulalie, Lavinia,
> > Lavinias black female cria, and Diamond. Please let me know your opinion.
> > I need to figure this out by Friday. Thanks again for your help.
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> > ?
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> > Wendy
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