Re: [AlpacaTalk] Aggressive male
----- Original Message -----From: Allison Moss-FritchSent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 1:12 AMSubject: RE: [AlpacaTalk] Aggressive male
Hi Laura,
I do understand how frightening it can be to have a rather large male be that aggressive. We do let our animals approach us .but on our terms We will let them come to us in the pasture when and as they are called; ..but only if there is no fighting or crowding. It has taken us about 5 years to get them all understanding "human" requirements for space. I bring pecans to the field for them as a treat.
It started when I was eating plain pecans from my pocket one day in the girls' pastures. One of our oldest and most curious girls came up and wanted to sniff what I had in my hand. I makeher wait until I called her name .so it was , "OK, Marquisate you can look at my pecans. You want a taste? OK, here is a pecan. Once she tried them she wanted more and so did everyone else. So we started using the pecans to teach them to come when called and also to be sure each knew her name. We now have a large pecan bill we buy them in bulk at Costco!!!
From there it was easy to train the boys. When male weanlings joined the male group, they had already gotten a taste for pecans from their moms, so now they came running when called and the big guys wanted to know what the youngsters thought was so good to eat.
Since we only let them have a nut at a time and since they can't approach until their own name is called, we get a lot of them standing near but not crowding. If they crowd, I say their name and tell them "NO!" and pass them over while someone else gets a treat. Later, I call them again .but until I do, they can't come up. Pretty soon they are learning to wait until it is their turn.
It has become a very useful part of training especially when you don't want to have to go out to get someone from the field or to put on a halter, and so forth.
With your big boy trying to butt you you can give him a squirt from the squirt bottle too and a little lemon juice for scent or vinegar does not hurt. He has to smell how embarrassed you made him and all the other guys can smell it too. Make him keep distance until you are ready to have him approach on your terms. You can also use that Frisbee or racquet. But the other side of that training is to be able to call him to you (at first to you while you are on the other side of the fence,) and let him learn that coming when called means a nice treat IF HE IS MANNERLY TO YOUR TERMS. Does he get paca crunchies? Well I bet he'd come up to the fence when he hears them bouncing around in a food dish. It is the same type of response, but just don't let him have any of the treat until he is standing quietly and you are ready to give him just a little bit.
Once he learns that nice things only come when he's polite to your requirements, it helps to break that bullying cycle he's started to be in. It also is important to use the bottle to make him think you have "insulted" him by spitting on him. So don't forget to jut your chin out and hold your hand high with the squirt bottle up high it is all part of the body language that makes it such an effective tool. Watch sometime how they threaten one another before they actually spit. Sometimes just lifting your chin like that is enough to make them back way off.
For him being a bully has paid off in status you fell on your butt and it made him seem the "big boy" now it will just makes him seem like the only alpaca too stupid to earn a treat. It is a great leveler and he won't have to die or lose his breeding value .
For the next while I'd work him in pairs where it is feasible Two of you go into the pastures, one of you has treats and the other has that bottle and you are both there. It will give you confidence and it will make the distinction between being embarrassed or rewarded all the more obvious to him. It would not hurt him if the first squirting was face to face, right between the eyes, and when and where his buddies could see him being put in his place. They are big on herd appearances .
what their friends think matters to them and he won't like having publically been put in his place.
Now I'm not Camelid Dynamics Master, or Vet, but I have had to get our alpacas to respect us and ours were wild as could be when we first got them. The treats could be other nuts or little bits of apple or carrot too, just something that only comes from the humans as a reward for doing it "your way". It has worked well for us and starts when they are new and very curious. We let them come up but we attach the behavior of coming to their name and our giving permission for them to approach. Now when I walk into the herd, they all come up but it is "OK." Because it is all within my control and not without permission.
Allison
Allison E. Moss-Fritch
New Moon Alpacas
Santa Clara, CA
http://www.newmoona
lpacas.com 408/248-3581
From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogro
ups.com [mailto:AlpacaTalk@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Laura A. Roberts
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 9:48 PM
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AlpacaTalk] Aggressive male
Hi Heather,
Thanks for the suggestions. Actually, I have been in touch with CameliDynamics practitioners- I had just attended a clinic in May. They both advised me to return him and neither felt gelding would help. It seems the combination of me being inexperienced and him being aggressive equals bad outcome, most likely.
No one wants to get into the politics of breeder ethics and that isn't the reason I am writing ..I just want to hear of other cases and get an idea of how common this is.
I do have a racquetball racquet that I can take in with me, but honestly ..I am afraid and he knows it. I have a bad hip and am so afraid of a serious injury and my daughter has been forbidden to enter the boys' pasture due to his behavior.
I do know that in the future, if I ever sell an animal to someone and something of this nature occurs, I will take that animal back and return their money. This has left a very bad taste in our mouth for this breeder. She told me this male was the first to come in at night and he gave kisses. I believe there was a lot of handling when he was young whether that contributed to this behavior, I am unsure, but trust me that we do not treat our boys like puppies and we are careful to teach them not to invade our personal space. I LIKE them to move away from me.
Thanks again for your ideas and suggestions.
Laura Roberts
R Half Pint Farm
Spotsylvania, VA
From: AlpacaTalk@yahoogro
ups.com [mailto:AlpacaTalk@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Heather Zeleny
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 12:34 AM
To: AlpacaTalk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AlpacaTalk] Aggressive male
Wow. First of all, this is a very poor policy by the breeder who sold you this male. She is liable for non-disclosure, and she could be in real trouble if you had been injured by this male. You do deserve a refund, I think. I don't think you should have to foot the bill for gelding. If he's herdsire quality, it would be a shame to geld just because he wasn't properly socialized and trained.
However, if a return with full refund isn't possible, it might be possible to re-train your aggressive boy. We have one here like that. He is a sweetheart to some people, but had behaved inappropriately towards me for a long time, rushing, bumping, etc.
We use a spray bottle out in the stalls, which works pretty well most of the time. It breaks up fights, stops food stealing, and can stop a boy from bad behavior toward humans. I rarely have it handy when I'm out with the boys, though. :) So, when I have to go to the pasture/stall with the boy who used to rush me and bump me, I was just always very alert. If I saw him coming toward me, quickly, I'd raise my hand to his eye/head level, like a traffic cop. If he got too close, he'd run into my hand. I was also ready to raise my knee to his chest if necessary. It is often advised to have a frizbee with you when dealing with alpacas with behavior problems. Give them a bop on the nose when they get too close or start to rear up, or start to bite. Not a hard one, just enough so they know..
I'm not sure how much our boy weighs, I'd say he's definitely 185+, possibly 200+, and I weigh around 120.
And I can tell you it is possible to alter your boy's behavior, probably. I know I was afraid of our boy for a long time, but I was just always ready for him, and stopped his bad habits before he got the upper hand. Now, he's still a pest and always in the way, and has little respect when I'm coming through with the hay cart, but he no longer tries any rough stuff with me. You know how most alpacas make way when they see humans coming... no, this boy doesn't do that and I have to shove him out of the way to get through sometimes, but I'm not worried about being out there with him there.
Best of luck. Oh, also, see if you can have a Camelidynamics practitioner come out to help. They are miracle workers. And the techniques really work. camelidynamics.
com or something like that.
Heather
Heather Zeleny
White Lotus Alpacas
Oregon
Holistic Farm and Elite Fleece
On Jul 13, 2009, at 9:12 PM, laura0554 wrote:
Hi,
I am new to this list and fairly new to alpacas. We purchased our first five last Fall and just brought home an additional five in June.
We have five girls and five boys.
The new males are aged 1+, 2+ and 4+. The oldest is our problem.
The second week we had him, he ran up to me and knocked me down. It happened very quickly and was totally unprovoked. I had actually just dished out some grain and put his bowl on the ground. The next thing I knew, I was flat on my back. I actually hit my head on the ground.
After that, I was afraid of him, so my dh took care of the boys and I took care of the girls. He ran up to the husband and jumped on him once, three weeks ago.
Well, today, we went in to halter the boys to move them to another pasture and barn and he went after my husband, again. Jumped on him...then my husband got on one side of a fence panel and the alpaca BIT him! He also attacked one of the younger males that we had haltered.
We have an appt with the vet on Wednesday and the plan was to geld him, along with a two other males we have, but now the whole family is saying euthanize him. I spoke to the breeder right after the first sign of aggression and she swore he never did anything like that and couldn't imagine why he would do it. I have spoken with several very experienced alpaca owners/breeders and all have urged us to return him to the breeder. The breeder said she wouldn't take him back.....then said she would but no refund. It is a 500+ miles trip and I do not want to spend any more money transporting this animal. I would give him away if someone wanted him but who in their right mind would want him when there are so many nice animals out there. He is conformationally correct and has nice fleece, but that means nothing to me if he is a danger to anyone, which I consider him to be.
Has anyone encountered this? I am not seeking approval for euthanizing him- we have to do what we feel is the best thing for our family, but I would love to hear from anyone that has had to deal with an aggressive male. He is a big boy, too. Weighs about 185 pounds and when he makes contact, he is HEAVY.
Thanks for any feedback.
Laura
R Half Pint Farm
Spotsylvania, VA
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posted by Chaddo at 7:02 AM
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